Bone & Dyeing

[kootenay joe]

GEC and others have been using bone from giraffe and camel as well as from cattle. From what i have seen the camel bone absorbs dye unevenly and often has areas with little color change. The giraffe bone shows a wide variety of 'looks' when died, nearly always very attractive. I have seen giraffe bone that resembles colorful mammoth ivory.
Giraffe shin bones are the densest of all bone so it seems odd that they take up the dye so well and the less dense (more porous) camel bone does not.
Also giraffe bone often has many colors in it. Is this because it has been dyed numerous times with different dyes ?
I would like to hear from those who have some knowledge or experience with bone dyeing
Could it be that those who dye giraffe bone have better technique than those who dye camel bone ? or is all dyeing of bone for knife handles done in the same place ?
Once the giraffes and camels get sorted out maybe we could discuss how you get Appaloosa bone because Appaloosas are extinct now
thanks for some education.
kj

[orvet]

GEC and others have been using bone from giraffe and camel as well as from cattle. From what i have seen the camel bone absorbs dye unevenly and often has areas with little color change. The giraffe bone shows a wide variety of 'looks' when died, nearly always very attractive. I have seen giraffe bone that resembles colorful mammoth ivory.
Giraffe shin bones are the densest of all bone so it seems odd that they take up the dye so well and the less dense (more porous) camel bone does not.
Also giraffe bone often has many colors in it. Is this because it has been dyed numerous times with different dyes ?
I would like to hear from those who have some knowledge or experience with bone dyeing
Could it be that those who dye giraffe bone have better technique than those who dye camel bone ? or is all dyeing of bone for knife handles done in the same place ?
Once the giraffes and camels get sorted out maybe we could discuss how you get Appaloosa bone because Appaloosas are extinct now
thanks for some education.
kj

Roland, I'm not sure which example of giraffe bone you are referring to, but I have seen multiple colors on giraffe bone handles. I'm sure this is a result of multiple dyes. I don't know what their techniques are and whether they are better than someone who dyes cattle to a solid color. The word better in this context is a value judgment and I suppose better or not depends on whether you prefer polychromatic or monochromatic bone. I don't think one technique is better or preferred over another, I believe it depends on one's personal preference and the purpose for which the bone is to be used.

My personal preferences on the color of bone depends on where I intend to use it. If I'm trying to restore a rare old Schrade pattern, I'm going to try and locate some bone handles with the jigging pattern and color that is nearest to the bone that was original to the knife. If I am customizing a newer pattern and want to create a little visual dissidence I may try multicolored giraffe bone on the classic, but plentiful, Camillus Barlow pattern. It all depends on the effect I'm trying to achieve with the new bone handles.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Dale. The giraffe bone GEC has been using has near universal appeal. Maybe someone with a good example will post a picture. Some have a warm orange 'glow' and no 2 pieces look identical. Each one is unique. I'm wanting to know how 'they' get so much color into the bone with every piece being different. I have not see any other bone that looks anything like giraffe after dyeing.
Then there is also Kudu bone which can look translucent, almost transparent and is said to have epoxy cement in it. But how or why would you get epoxy to penetrate big 'ol Kudu bone ? Kudus are big heavy animals. I had a GEC knife with Kudu bone handles which did not look anything like bone including no Haversian 'dots. It was clear, transparent, with a few dark lines running through it'. I could see the underlying liners. How can this be bone ?
It seems like there are recent new techniques being used to treat bone that will be used for knife handles. The giraffe and Kudu don't look anything like the bone knife handles we are familiar with.
kj
Here is a picture of Kudu bone:

[sunknife]

I have no insight to offer as to how the different bones come out like they do when dyed but the camel bone, and especially the giraffe are quite unique when compared to cattle bone.
Here are my only two examples; 1st pic is camel
2nd & 3rd pics are giraffe

[XX Case XX]

I know your question was about people with experience with bone dyeing, but just for information, here's an actual pair of Giraffe bone handles I bought. They don't seem to absorb the same color all the way around as I can see light and dark sections.

Like I said, information only.

__________
Mike (Photo from Manufacturer).

[kootenay joe]

Here is a Northwoods Fayette Jack with giraffe bone. I think everyone will agree that it is most attractive. It transcends 'personal preference' and has universal appeal. Other giraffe bone examples can look quite different from this Fayette jack, but the universal appeal is more often present than not.
As this can be done with giraffe why does camel bone not come out equally attractive ? Some camel bone is quite attractive but much of it can be rather dull browns and grays.
Also picture of the Fayette jack with a Northwoods Presidential with fine mammoth handles. I think the giraffe here is as attractive as the mammoth.
kj

[tongueriver]

I certainly do love that giraffe bone. I don't know a thing about the techniques. Meanwhile...

"maybe we could discuss how you get Appaloosa bone because Appaloosas are extinct now "
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm ... XIaZbp9Obg

[glennbad]

IMO, it could be many things, most notably the animal's diet and physical makeup, that dictate the density of the bone and its' ability to absorb dye. These bones are all dyed in a pressure vacuum, so they should have the same conditions to accept the dye. So the bone itself is the deciding factor in how it will turn out.

Giraffe are somewhat different than camels. They share much of the same climate, but Giraffes are tall lanky animals, so their bones would be designed to support that type of frame. Camels are slightly more compact, notable for retaining water, and can carry loads. Giraffe eat the leaves that grow high on trees, and camels? I assume vegetation of some kind, but it may not be as green and fresh as the leaves Giraffe eat. I would assume that all those factors influence porousness of the bone.

Of course, I am no zoologist...

[orvet]

I think everyone will agree that it is most attractive. It transcends 'personal preference' and has universal appeal.

I would agree with attractive; "most attractive" would seem to say that it is the most attractive of all bone handles. With that I do not agree, my personal preference is usually for jigged bone although I do find some smooth camel bone and some smooth giraffe bone to be quite pretty.
As for transcending personal preference and having universal appeal, I'm not sure that any and all material can make that claim. If someone were to do a survey to that effect among the general population, celluloid might be like more than bone handles.

As this can be done with giraffe why does camel bone not come out equally attractive ? Some camel bone is quite attractive but much of it can be rather dull browns and grays.

Most, if not all, of the camel bone I have seen for sale in the US has come from India. I have seen plain white bone, dyed bone with lighter streaks through it and I have seen dark dyed camel bone that has been jigged.

“Camel bone is desired for its large size. It is slightly more dense that cow shin bone. It colors nicely and makes a great handle material. All pairs are carefully matched into pairs.” - Knifehandles.com

According to Google the giraffe is found in the following African countries; Kenya, Cameroon, Chad, Niger, Uganda, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Angola, and South Africa. I don’t know where the bone is processed, cleaned, dyed, jigged (if so desired) and cut to the proper shapes. They could be processed in Africa, or they may be ship somewhere else to be processed, perhaps to the US. I noticed knifehandles.com does have listed some end cuts of giraffe bone, which may indicate they are processing, or at least sizing giraffe bone at their facility.

While there may be some unique characteristics to each three main types of bone used in knife handles, bovine, camel & giraffe, I think most of the differences we see in them are reflective of the techniques used by the people who process them, the resources they have and the traditional methods that have developed in that area of the world.

I believe the difference in color is more reflecting about the dye and technique used rather than of the bone itself.

[Quick Steel]

Whoah. I may have fallen into a deep pool of ignorance. {Not for the first time.] I never thought that appaloosa bone actually came from the horses. I assumed it was cattle bone dyed in varied coloration. I realize these horses do die and there is no reason not to collect the bones. I do not know when I went off the rails on this.

[kootenay joe]

Quote Dale: "I believe the difference in color is more reflecting about the dye and technique used rather than of the bone itself."
I think so too. So those who process the giraffe bone have the best technique and i wish the camel bone dyers would 'catch up'.
Bone density is determined by the amount of stress forces on the bone. Giraffe have most of their considerable weight right over their front legs. The shoulders and neck are massive so there are huge stress forces put onto their front lower leg bones resulting in the densest bone known. It is not based on diet or what part of Africa they inhabit. It should be the most difficult bone to dye because of it's density.
When i say "most attractive" i am referring to smooth bone. Jigged bone is a different category of bone. And i speak British English and "most" is used to mean a bit more than "very". So "most attractive" does not mean the most attractive in existence. It is more like: "very, very attractive".
kj

[kootenay joe]

Q.S. Appaloosa does refer to a variety of horse that has a spotted coat but i believe "Appaloosa bone" is cattle bone dyed to resemble the spotted hide of an Appaloosa horse. I doubt the horse's bones are spotted. But, how do they get the cattle bone to absorb the dye in a spotty manner ?
kj

[Quick Steel]

Glad to learn I was right about the cattle bone. Don't know the coloring technique. Perhaps someone who worked in the industry will be able to enlighten us.

[OLDE CUTLER]

This is probably one of those things where if you had 100 people do something with a strict definition of what the outcome would be, you would have 100 different "proprietary methods" of doing it. And the people involved would give you all the finished product you want, but if you asked them to reveal how they did it they would say "well OK, but then I would have to kill you".

[cudgee]

Here is a Northwoods Fayette Jack with giraffe bone. I think everyone will agree that it is most attractive. It transcends 'personal preference' and has universal appeal. Other giraffe bone examples can look quite different from this Fayette jack, but the universal appeal is more often present than not.
As this can be done with giraffe why does camel bone not come out equally attractive ? Some camel bone is quite attractive but much of it can be rather dull browns and grays.
Also picture of the Fayette jack with a Northwoods Presidential with fine mammoth handles. I think the giraffe here is as attractive as the mammoth.
kj

I'm sorry i have to strongly disagree, it is not most attractive, it is" fantastically attractive". Absolutely love the look, and am willing to bet my bottom dollar that it feels as good in the hand as it looks.

[glennbad]

Quote Dale: "I believe the difference in color is more reflecting about the dye and technique used rather than of the bone itself."
I think so too. So those who process the giraffe bone have the best technique and i wish the camel bone dyers would 'catch up'.
Bone density is determined by the amount of stress forces on the bone. Giraffe have most of their considerable weight right over their front legs. The shoulders and neck are massive so there are huge stress forces put onto their front lower leg bones resulting in the densest bone known. It is not based on diet or what part of Africa they inhabit. It should be the most difficult bone to dye because of it's density.
When i say "most attractive" i am referring to smooth bone. Jigged bone is a different category of bone. And i speak British English and "most" is used to mean a bit more than "very". So "most attractive" does not mean the most attractive in existence. It is more like: "very, very attractive".
kj

Except that a company like Culpepper dyes their own giraffe and camel bone at the same facility, with the same machines, and the same dyes but gets different results.

[kootenay joe]

Glen, that is what i wanted to know. I will email Culpepper and ask why the giraffe comes out better than the camel. But is the colorful very attractive giraffe that GEC uses from Culpepper ? Or is there some other 'outfit' that is making the standout giraffe ?
I bet someone here knows where GEC gets their bone.
It feels like we are getting somewhere.
kj

[Reverand]

This is probably one of those things where if you had 100 people do something with a strict definition of what the outcome would be, you would have 100 different "proprietary methods" of doing it. And the people involved would give you all the finished product you want, but if you asked them to reveal how they did it they would say "well OK, but then I would have to kill you".

Then can you get them to tell my wife?

[glennbad]

Interesting that I see all kinds of camel bone listed at Culpepper, but only end cuts of giraffe listed there. I wonder why they don't have any for sale right now...

[Tony_Wood]

Here is a Northwoods Fayette Jack with giraffe bone. I think everyone will agree that it is most attractive. It transcends 'personal preference' and has universal appeal. Other giraffe bone examples can look quite different from this Fayette jack, but the universal appeal is more often present than not.
As this can be done with giraffe why does camel bone not come out equally attractive ? Some camel bone is quite attractive but much of it can be rather dull browns and grays.
Also picture of the Fayette jack with a Northwoods Presidential with fine mammoth handles. I think the giraffe here is as attractive as the mammoth.
kj

Those are extraordinary knives!

[zoogirl]

Interesting that I see all kinds of camel bone listed at Culpepper, but only end cuts of giraffe listed there. I wonder why they don't have any for sale right now...

I’m going to guess this has something to do with it. They are now a threatened species. Further up the article it says that the Nubian Giraffe is down to about 450 animals.