What Makes A ?---? Knife, A ?---? Knife?

[New_Windsor_NY]

I couldn't figure out how to phrase the title correctly. But, if you're reading this, the title I used is working. What I'm asking is this and I will use Camillus as the example, but you can substitute any knife maker(s). If a Camillus 14 knife has 2 Camillus blades, 2 Camillus handles, a Camillus shield, a Camillus frame, etc., it is regarded as a Camillus knife. What if it has 2, 1 or no Camillus blades, ? handles, ? shield, ? frame, etc. Is it still a Camillus knife? At what point or how many parts have to be substituted or replaced to have a 100%, all original parts, factory made knife lose its factory made identity? "Frankenknife " to me is a vague term. To me, at least, that means a knife is 100% made of different parts, not just 1 or 2 parts. I also DO NOT mean the knives that are contracted out to other manufacturers. I hope this question makes sense.

I'll start with the following Camillus (?) knife (I know it's not a #14). It has 2 blades, 1 definite, stamped, Camillus blade. Possible Schrade handles. Possible Uncle Henry blank shield. Suspect bolsters(?), etc. So, is it a Camillus knife with Schrade handles? Is it a Schrade knife with Camillus blade(s)? Is it a ?---? knife? Whatever it is, I like it and that is all that matters. What do you purists say?

[btrwtr]

If it's not all factory original, regardless of who made the parts, I consider it to be less than whatever the majority of it is. Whether an old repair, frankenknife or outright counterfeit it's not original so there must be a caveat somewhere in the description of it. Schrade knife with replaced non-original blade or Case knife with replaced non-original handles for example.

If Camillus makes the knife and farms out the handles to Schrade then it's still a Camillus factory knife as the manufacturer intended it to be produced and sold. The stamp on the tang should be the default.

[Robo]

I'd like to hear from the purists also as I am not one, but I think you're asking a really good question, one that I've been pondering myself although from a slightly different angle. The story told in my case is about parts from the defunct Cattaraugus plant being sold off and then being assembled post factory by lesser skilled gents who then entered these knives into the market. So to ask your question? Are these Cattaraugus pocket knives or parts knives? I believe they are Cattaraugus, even the ones that are laughably hafted. Of course the ultimate question is how do they rate in the collector economy? Are they equal in value to a knife made inside the plant? Are they worth less because they weren't? Or are they to be treated like counterfeits and shunned altogether? Like i said, my answer is "Yes, they ought to be considered Cattaraugus pocket knives, not parts knives or counterfeits. But they should be valued accordingly. Needless to say the value of a well hafted in-house Cat. should be greater than one assembled by an unskilled, semi-skilled or even skilled craftsman if he lacks the tools to do the work properly.

Why do I think this way? Because I also believe collectors are preservationists. We preserve the pocket knives in our collections for the edification and pleasure of a future generation of collectors upon or demise. Attached to all these diminutive relics of the past is the history of the age they were manufactured in. It may be history in the form of a question rather than the form of a fact, but history none-the-less. Any of us who have taken the time to dive in and try to understand the how and why of the knives we love are more often than not frustrated in our search for answers. But we still experience the thrill of at least partially penetrating the past and we come back with a slightly better understanding of it. You can't put a price on this priceless experience. So where I un-ceremoniously tossed out the few counterfeits I purchased in the beginning of my journey, I hold the two Catturaugus pocket knives I bought-- with full knowledge of their status as after-factory builds-- in high esteem. I won't be selling them so perhaps this is a moot point, but if I was forced to, I'd accept the fact that they are of a lower pedigree than their factory made cousins and accept a lesser price for them, but I'd defend their right to exist as Cattaraugus clan members and be collected because I believe they have just as much historical value.

Hope this ads a little something to what should be a really intersting thread.

[deo-pa]

Ah the age old question. If Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Descartes, and Locke (who were all knife collectors) couldn't answer it what hope have we?

Dennis

[Mumbleypeg]

Wayne's answer is correct. If it wasn't made in the company's factory, or authorized by them to be made by another factory or person, then it isn't their knife. A Camillus made by Camillus or another entity authorized or contracted by Camillus to make it, is a Camillus knife.

A Case made by Case, or made by Camillus on contract for Case, is a Case. A Case with another maker’s blade or blades put in it by someone else not authorized to do so by Case, is not a Case. A Case purchased by a third party and re-handled is not a Case unless done so by someone Case authorized to do such work. For example those originally yellow synthetic handled knives re-handled with KKK handles. Those were not authorized by Case so they're not Case knives, regardless what the tang stamp says.

The knives made up of surplus Cattaraugus parts are not Cattaraugus knives. Those such knives I have seen do not come close to representing the quality and workmanship of a true Cattaraugus. To represent one otherwise is an insult to the legacy of that fine old company. There is more to preservation than just the parts and the names on them - there is also a standard of workmanship/quality associated with a company’s products.

There is also an intangible “something” (I’ve seen it called “soul”) associated with many old brands. It’s that “something” that an old knife has which allows someone familiar with the brand to look at a knife, and without reading the stamp say definitively “that’s a ___________.” For example knives made in China and stamped Miller Brothers by someone who today legitimately owns that trademark. They may be good knives. But “soul” they ain’t got - and they’re not Miller Brothers.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! So I guess that makes me a purist.

Ken

[zzyzzogeton]

No matter how well cobbled together a knife may be, if it wasn't made that way by Company X or made that way on contract by Company Y under the instructions/specifications demanded/required by Company X. then the knife in question is NOT a Company X knife.

A cobbled together knife consisting of parts from 2 or more companies is a frankenknife.

It may be a nice knife, but it is still a frankenknife.

[philco]

No matter how well cobbled together a knife may be, if it wasn't made that way by Company X or made that way on contract by Company Y under the instructions/specifications demanded/required by Company X. then the knife in question is NOT a Company X knife.

A cobbled together knife consisting of parts from 2 or more companies is a frankenknife.

It may be a nice knife, but it is still a frankenknife.

I agree completely.

[Robo]

"Whatever it is, I like it and that is all that matters"

I re-read New Winsor's post and the above statement jumped out at me. I think all of us, as members of the collecting community, can agree that,our common enemy is the counterfeit knife and those who would stoop to make and try sell them to us. So it's understandable that we leave very little wiggle room in our definition of what constitutes a legitimate factory knife. Under THAT definition, neither New Winsor's nor my arguments pass muster and I'm okay with that. But if we walk next door--so to speak--to the Repair and Modification Forum, no one would be talking about "Franken Knives" and, "Whatever it is, I like it and that is all that matters" could very well be a banner hanging on their wall. I totally understand New Winsor's point as my favorite EDC is a strait XX 61093 with a strait XX 32095F stainless blade which I personally replaced the worn down original blade with. A "frankenknife"? maybe-- but just don't call it that to my face unless you want to see a grown man bust out crying. So my take away here is: we need to remember which forum cap we're wearing when arguing a point.

As far as my example goes, using the historical angle to legitimize "after factory builds" is probably a little weak. But my intentions are 100% pure. The majority of "dogbone" ticklers I've found on Worthpoint seem to be "after factory builds" from what I can tell. So, say I was able to purchase all of them and I made a cool display, and entered it in a local show-- being absolutely clear that they were red headed step children-- would that display be of no interest to my fellow collectors? Would they call me a con man and toss me out the back door of the convention center? After all,they really aren't mixed-part knives, and they aren't counterfeits by any stretch. The pattern is one of two variations of the #11 pattern (see middle knife below) and it's a really odd and cool looking knife the likes of which you may never see in the legit factory version; infact, I've yet to see them in any book or hardware catalog. So I'd like to think for "Instructional purposes only" (as the D.I.s used to say when bending a rule) some exceptions could be allowed in order to shed a little more light on Cattaraugus' proud history.

[Mumbleypeg]

I applaud the “rescue” of old knives, using legitimate parts from a donor knife from the same maker - repair a broken Camillus with parts from another broken Camillus of the same pattern. Where possible (as with Case) send the knife to them for repair (with their help I’ve restored some when they could do so, like replacing broken handles for example).

Robo, I understand the desire to have something “cool and different.” That’s human nature. Modifying knives and other things has been going on for thousands of years and will continue. Putting modified knives in a display and taking them to a show, marked as such, would make an interesting curiosity IMHO. Personally, I doubt I’d ever buy one of them for my collection, but someone else might. Regardless of intention, to my eye those are still Frankenknives. Not meant in a derogatory way. But be honest - they’re just not legitimate representations of any maker’s knife.

Although you might make and sell one to someone else, representing it honestly, what concerns me is what the buyer may do with it. It may be sold again, represented as a “factory lunchbox” knife. “You can buy this unique, one of a kind ?——-? knife, smuggled out of the ?——-? factory in a lunchbox. For only $1,000!” Or, it was a “one of a kind prototype. My neighbors brother’s wife’s uncle has a friend who had a cousin who worked for ?——-?, and he said it was so.” We see it all too often.

Ken

[Old Hunter]

Sometimes a knife is simply a knife. As collectors we are educated and interested in details, minor and major, and they make big differences to us in what we are willing to pay. But to someone needing to cut something it doesn't matter - a cheap, frankenknife that works is a good knife (but that is all it is). OH

[LongBlade]

In many respects “to each their own”... for me the knife is cobbled and not original if even one blade or half a handle was replaced - guess I’m a purist .. for me even buffing a knife kills collectibility and value when it comes to a knife collection... but for those who just want a sharp edge it really doesn’t matter - I understand and respect that type of collecting... my concern was mentioned by Ken in that repaired knives not marked or known as such can perpetuate knives not being original but being sold as such.... as mentioned about Cattauraugus parts and knives following their end I can accept that all parts were original but in a way it is an “after market” knife... similar things happened with Northfield and Holley parts by Henry Gill who was a Northfield employee before it closed - he made knives with those parts up until the 1960s... Were those knives Northfield factory produced? No and quite frankly may be difficult to differentiate from an original dating to Northfield... Charles Platts also used Nothfield parts when he returned there in the early 1900s but he stamped the blades “Platts N’field” - I posted a Platts N’field Hawkbill in the Horticultural thread - this latter case with Platts is different because you know from the tang stamp where the knife originated.. on the other hand I have a very old Sheffield sheepsfoot that dates to 1840 or before - almost a relic but still quite functional - the pivot pin was no doubt replaced long long ago and not professionally but that knife to me is still a cool historical knife - in this case I can accept the replaced pin - it was done to keep a tool working and not uncommon as repairs were not easy back in those days... but it is quite easy to see the pin was replaced and not original...

Robo - I think your display is cool - you were not trying to deceive anybody as to origin and it showed some interesting knives that nobody may ever see when Catt was in business!!

Interesting discussion ..

[ken98k]

A Case purchased by a third party and re-handled is not a Case unless done so by someone Case authorized to do such work. For example those originally yellow synthetic handled knives re-handled with KKK handles. Those were not authorized by Case so they're not Case knives, regardless what the tang stamp says.
Ken

I'll just have to disagree here. A Case (or Schrade or whatever) Is still a Case even though if it has new handle slabs, it's just not original. It may or may not make it less collectible, and it may or may not lower it's value. On the other hand, a Case that has had those cheap yellow plastic handles removed and replaced with some nice stag by one of our master knife techs is certainly worth more. Additionally, you certainly increase the value of some knives by replacing the factory celluloid handle material, thereby saving the knife and possibly others in the vicinity.

[Mumbleypeg]

A Case purchased by a third party and re-handled is not a Case unless done so by someone Case authorized to do such work. For example those originally yellow synthetic handled knives re-handled with KKK handles. Those were not authorized by Case so they're not Case knives, regardless what the tang stamp says.
Ken

I'll just have to disagree here. A Case (or Schrade or whatever) Is still a Case even though if it has new handle slabs, it's just not original. It may or may not make it less collectible, and it may or may not lower it's value. On the other hand, a Case that has had those cheap yellow plastic handles removed and replaced with some nice stag by one of our master knife techs is certainly worth more. Additionally, you certainly increase the value of some knives by replacing the factory celluloid handle material, thereby saving the knife and possibly others in the vicinity.

Ken, you’re certainly entitled to disagree. (not that you need permission!) But I think we agree more than disagree. As you said, “it’s just not original”.

Regarding value and collectability, I didn’t perceive the OP question to be related to either value or collectability. My reply was related to the knife’s authenticity as a “?——-?” knife. I certainly agree that in some cases modifications from the original factory-made knife may make it more collectible (for those who like that kind of knives). And more valuable (for those who like modified knives). But again as you said, “it’s just not original.” And as Wayne said, “it's not original so there must be a caveat somewhere in the description of it.“

As for the celluloid example we also agree, at least assuming the original celluloid is deteriorating. However as long as the original handles are good I would never consider replacing them. I’m all for preserving authentic old knives but I’m not one to immediately pop the celluloid handles off a knife just because they’re celluloid. I have replaced decomposing factory celluloid handles on a couple of old Case knives, and one with broken pearl handles. Those were sent to Case repair, and the handles replaced with Case’s current day equivalent yellow synthetic and pearl. If Case had not been able to do it, or if I need work done on Camillus, Schrade, Ulster or other now defunct brand, I would gladly send them to one of the fine knife mechanics here on AAPK.

So I think we mostly agree. But if not, that’s okay too - I don’t expect everyone to agree. That’s what makes AAPK an interesting place to hang out!

Ken

[Robo]

Ken, I like After Factory Build (AFB) better than "Frankenknife" because Despite their being made outside their respective factories, I still love finding those crazy Dog Bone Ticklers and I love the AFB Aerial Ticklers too, so Frankenknife to me is a bit harsh. But in the spirit of our continued AAPK friendship I'm willing to compromise and call them "Bride of Frankenknife". that has a nice ring to it--don't you agree!?

Longblade--Thanks for liking my display!!!

Everyone---Thanks for the enlightened thoughts!

[Mumbleypeg]

Ken, I like After Factory Build (AFB) better than "Frankenknife" because Despite their being made outside their respective factories, I still love finding those crazy Dog Bone Ticklers and I love the AFB Aerial Ticklers too, so Frankenknife to me is a bit harsh. But in the spirit of our continued AAPK friendship I'm willing to compromise and call them "Bride of Frankenknife". that has a nice ring to it--don't you agree!?

Longblade--Thanks for liking my display!!!

Everyone---Thanks for the enlightened thoughts!

As the old saying goes “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”! You sure you want Bride of Frankenstein though?

Ken

[Robo]

Wait! No neck bolts? She's a fake! She's a....


....... FrankenBrideofFrankenstein!

[ken98k]

Ken, I like After Factory Build (AFB) better than "Frankenknife" because Despite their being made outside their respective factories, I still love finding those crazy Dog Bone Ticklers and I love the AFB Aerial Ticklers too, so Frankenknife to me is a bit harsh. But in the spirit of our continued AAPK friendship I'm willing to compromise and call them "Bride of Frankenknife". that has a nice ring to it--don't you agree!?

Longblade--Thanks for liking my display!!!

Everyone---Thanks for the enlightened thoughts!

I think of a frankenknife as one that has had parts changed or altered other than simple handle replacement. I guess this would also apply to all those trappers with the spade reshaped or the electrician knives converted into plain jacks.
Here's an example that I own and cherish. It's a Case 54 with the spade blade removed and the clip re-contoured as well as new handles. This would probably qualify as a frankenknife.

[Robo]

Ken, Just saw this. I can understand you cherishing that one despite it being frankenknifed. AWESOME blade re-contour! Looks like this 094 blade with maybe a little moore recurve. thanks for sharing!

[OLDE CUTLER]

This is a most interesting thread with a lot of very good points brought up by all. One thing I have noticed since I joined AAPK about a year and a half ago is something that I was totally unaware of is that welding is actually used to repair knives and to counterfeit knives. I was kind of shocked to read here that some people have actually welded good blades from different brand knives onto knives that have rare or valuable tang stamps to try to mis represent what they actually have. I would certainly regard for instance, welding a Camillus blade onto a broken tested or other broken tang to be outright counterfeiting. But I have also read about shops that specialize in welding onto the tangs of worn out blades to renew the snap of that blade. Is this considered to be "OK"? It seems to me that both of these welding projects are trying to do the same thing, that is "improve the value of something which might not necessarily have any value". On the one hand you could say that welding another blade onto an old broken tang is bringing something foreign to the knife, bringing new weld to the worn out tang is also bringing something foreign to the knife. Since the welding and the required machine work are not cheap, it would have to be said that this process is mostly used on the more valuable knives out there that would benefit financially from it. I am just wondering what the comments would be from serious collectors that may own knives that have that type of repair work done on them?