True split back knives

[djknife13]

We've had a few discussions about true split back whittlers and I've never seen one, but I have two true split back knives which I've posted pictures of before. I thought I'd post one of the old pictures and another one I took to show the split better on the small knife. Both are stamped cast steel and show the marks of Cutlers to the King, but the maker is worn off. I would guess both are early 1800's from the readable parts of the marks and their construction. I would love to see any true split knives any of you have, and especially a true split back whittler. Mine are a hawkbill and a Wharncliff jack.____Dave

[djknife13]

Another picture.

[btrwtr]

Never owned one. Very cool knife!

[LongBlade]

Nice knives Dave and great thread to start ... as you mention I mostly hear about true split spring whittlers but never saw one - anyway here’s one I posted under “Old and Rare” thread....

This small 2 blade swayback ivory jack with rat tail bolsters is 2 1/8" and is a true split spring. All steel construction including liners and bolsters though the pins appear to be brass on the handles (not pivot pin) - no doubt much heavier in hand than one would expect for a knife at this size. On the mark side photo I included a penny sized 1863 Civil War token for relative size though I think this no doubt pre-dated the Civil War... I'm thinking based on a few things 170-200 years old or maybe more - early for sure. The knife no doubt has stove pipe or square kicks on both blades....

The knife is stamped "Gascoigne Superior" on both master sheep foot blade and pen blade. Gascoigne is a known British surname since the 12th century with French roots. Sheffield was not on the tang stamp and there is not a Gascoigne listed in Tweedale's directory. It is possible the knife was pre-1830 when Sheffield was not stamped on knives as of yet. However I did find an online directory from 1821 and again 1841 that had a Joseph Gascoigne listed as a cutler and spring knife maker in Attercliffe - Attercliffe is a northeast suburb of Sheffield. This is a strong possibility for the maker. The other noted Gascoigne was one of the partners which started Empire Knife Co (Thompson and Gascoigne)...

I am thinking the knife was possibly a desk knife given the size - possibly carried but not for larger utility at this size.

[djknife13]

Thanks Lee. I sure wish I could see more of the stampings on either of my knives, but as we see from yours, any information is a little tough to come by. I hope this thread builds on what little we do know. ___Dave

[jerryd6818]

Am I correct in assuming you guys are talking about a single back spring that's been split down the middle part way as opposed to two springs with a wedge shaped separator middle liner.

I've seen pictures on here of "true split springs" (one spring split down the middle) and for the life of me can't figure out how the heck they did that.

[Steve Warden]

Am I correct in assuming you guys are talking about a single back spring that's been split down the middle part way as opposed to two springs with a wedge shaped separator middle liner.

I've seen pictures on here of "true split springs" (one spring split down the middle) and for the life of me can't figure out how the heck they did that.

Thanks for asking, Jerry. I was wondering the same thing.

[LongBlade]

Am I correct in assuming you guys are talking about a single back spring that's been split down the middle part way as opposed to two springs with a wedge shaped separator middle liner.

I've seen pictures on here of "true split springs" (one spring split down the middle) and for the life of me can't figure out how the heck they did that.

Correct Jerry - a single spring that is split partway

As to how they made a true split spring I am not sure... We discussed this abit on another thread but we were just speculating... I always wondered how many springs they went through to get it right if it was “hit or miss” with a chisel ... the only thing I know is true split springs are rare to see ...

[Dinadan]

Interesting idea for a thread, Dave! I was not aware that there were any split back spring knives other than whittlers. Those are very nice old knives that you posted as well as the one Lee posted. I am thinking that the springs were made separately then welded together by heating and hammering in the old blacksmith way. Looks like I still see the seam in Lee's knife. Very cool stuff and a tribute to the skills of the old time makers.

[steve99f]

I think Mel has it given the technology of the times. The question for me is why? What is gained?

[Mumbleypeg]

Here are a couple of pictures I’ve found and kept over the years, showing true split back springs. Not my knives, just some pictures I thought were interesting, may have been from other AAPK posts.

Ken

[LongBlade]

Interesting idea for a thread, Dave! I was not aware that there were any split back spring knives other than whittlers. Those are very nice old knives that you posted as well as the one Lee posted. I am thinking that the springs were made separately then welded together by heating and hammering in the old blacksmith way. Looks like I still see the seam in Lee's knife. Very cool stuff and a tribute to the skills of the old time makers.

Mel - I’m not sure they were welded or forged together from 2 separate pieces - somehow I think they were split from one spring - I saw that line you highlighted on my backspring but on both sides of it there are no signs of 2 possible separate springs that were forge welded so it maybe a scratch (and in fact it doesn’t quite line up with the definite split) - I originally thought maybe they “scored” the single spring so it would split where they wanted but not sure that is the case... I looked with a high power magnifier... in fact the end of spring that wraps around towards the handle well shows it to be solid on the spring end and inside the well no signs of anything other than a solid single spring except where the definite split is located ..

Here are a couple of pictures I’ve found and kept over the years, showing true split back springs. Not my knives, just some pictures I thought were interesting, may have been from other AAPK posts.

Ken

Thanks for posting those Ken .. the first knife is dcgm4 ‘s (Dave) Jackson whittler and though 2 separate springs from a single piece the making of it was no doubt different ... the second knife is definitely another true split spring knife ..

[RobesonsRme.com]

Interesting discussion and one that has caused some real disagreements elsewhere.

Personally, I cannot comprehend that the cutler actually "split" or sawed a single spring for a portion of its length, except in the case of one like that shown above by Mumblypeg.

I see it more likely that two identical pieces of steel were forged together at one end by extreme heat and hammer forging.

The construction of true whittlers varies as to their backsprings; some are like these, some have brass dividers and I have had Robesons with two flush tapered springs and no divider whatsoever.

Charlie Noyes

[jerryd6818]

It's HPFM.

[Dinadan]

Mel - I’m not sure they were welded or forged together from 2 separate pieces - somehow I think they were split from one spring - I saw that line you highlighted on my backspring but on both sides of it there are no signs of 2 possible separate springs that were forge welded so it maybe a scratch (and in fact it doesn’t quite line up with the definite split) - I originally thought maybe they “scored” the single spring so it would split where they wanted but not sure that is the case... I looked with a high power magnifier... in fact the end of spring that wraps around towards the handle well shows it to be solid on the spring end and inside the well no signs of anything other than a solid single spring except where the definite split is located ..

You have the knife in hand. I was just guessing based on what I know or think I know about what was possible back in the 1800s. Think of Damascus steel: it is basically the same process. I recall that my Dad showed me how to forge weld back when I was a kid (last millennium of course) and I was very impressed. Splitting one spring like that would be a lot harder I think, but those old time smiths could do impressive stuff.

[djknife13]

I'd still like to see an actual photo of a whittler or even other examples of other styles. I've convinced myself, very possibly wrongly, that the spring was forged welded from two and not fluxed where they wanted it to split after. I have no experience or real knowledge to base that on but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I also can't believe they are that rare if I found two. I bought both of mine from the same dealer. Maybe he figured out a way to fill in the crack and is making a killing off my ignorance. I'm kidding because he's a friend,..... or a really good deceiver. ____Dave

[LongBlade]

You have the knife in hand. I was just guessing based on what I know or think I know about what was possible back in the 1800s. Think of Damascus steel: it is basically the same process. I recall that my Dad showed me how to forge weld back when I was a kid (last millennium of course) and I was very impressed. Splitting one spring like that would be a lot harder I think, but those old time smiths could do impressive stuff.

Thanks Mel ... I really don’t know how they did it but like you note it sure makes more sense that they were forge welded... on mine I kept thinking that because the split seemed not exactly like 2 springs being flush at one time (note it looks abit jagged between the edges down towards the end of the split) that I kept thinking maybe a whack with a chisel at the end of the spring split it ... less likely for sure than your explanation of forge welding which makes more sense ...

[Mumbleypeg]

The example I posted (the bottom picture) must surely have started as two pieces, forged together on one end, then treated to create spring steel.

In my feeble mind I see no other practical way it could be done, especially given the technology available. On any attempt to create one by cutting from a single piece, the resulting kerf would leave create wider gap between the resulting two springs. Like the one example I posted. I believe that top picture is a good example of a sawed one-piece steel spring, with a brass piece inserted.



Ken

[Dinadan]

I believe that top picture is a good example of a sawed one-piece steel spring, with a brass piece inserted.
Ken

Yes, and finding one of those would be like finding the holy grail! I hope this thread brings out some more photos of split springs, either kind.

The question for me is why? What is gained?

That is a very good question, in my opinion. I have seen examples of whittlers where the joint separated a bit and the main blade slipped off one spring, Welding the springs could prevent that, but in the case of the knives posted by Dave and Lee that would not apply since neither blade rides on both springs. Maybe just a nice touch?

[btrwtr]

Great thread with awesome examples. Any idea when this practice was phased out?

[kootenay joe]

This is the first i have heard of a split spring Jack knife. I had thought their use was limited to whittlers & lobster knives. We have all seen very old 2 blade jacks with 2 springs. Why would a split spring be used ? I would think more work is involved forging a split spring than in forging 2 springs.
I recall BRL saying the spring was heated to red hot before being split, but he did not say how it was split. A cold chisel could cut through hot steel.
kj

[Lansky1]

Ok, so seems we have a general consensus of how they created true split backspring knives --- BUT --- the question I have is WHY in the world did they put all that extra work into creating a split backspring ?

Was it purely for aesthetics ... perhaps to distinguish one makers work apart from the others from a skill perspective ? I would be curious to have your thoughts on what was the practical reason for going through the trouble of creating a forged split backspring ... thx

[LongBlade]

That’s a great question John - and Wayne alludes to it above in terms of when this was done or phased out... IMO - I doubt it was aesthetics - personally I find 2 springs with a liner inbetween more attractive... I’m not sure it was “showing” off skill either though it no doubt took skill to do it... I can’t seem to find much on trying to dig for info but maybe I just haven’t hit the right key words... my only understanding from others about split springs is that it was early 19th century and earlier (if indeed that is correct). I assume it was just one way to create springs for multiple blades (more than one way to skin a cat ) and maybe it depended on where in those old days you learned your cutlery skills to create a knife - again all just speculation from me.. I am abit surprised how hard it is to find an answer or relevant info, and I am also surprised that we have 4 examples in this thread and none are a whittler where we often hear a true whittler has split springs (except for Dave’s Jackson example though that was different and not exactly split springs like the other 4 knives)...

[carrmillus]

.....just looked at all of mine, I have 3 Camillus whittlers that have the triangular spacer, also have an equal end knife (3 blade) that has 3 full springs- all are 4 line stamped!!(1914-1941)............. ...........

[djknife13]

My two knives have good snap after almost two hundred years, if our guesses about age are correct. I suppose knives this old also aren't all that common any more so finding any from that era is difficult. I'm just blown away by how many know about split spring whittlers, and we can't seem to find any among all us AAPK family. I was really stunned when I found the hawkbill. ________Dave