America's "Little Sheffield"

[LongBlade]

Thanks Jay... its no doubt the variables which throw me - I know Rogers and Salisbury (less familiar with Salisbury but as you noted a supplier for Holley) no doubt did some jigging yet I am sure there was also a fair amount of jigging done at companies which you note as well - and I would think pending upon orders and supply of knives needed to fill market orders that some companies needed to resort to both so that is where it is difficult at least for me - until you noted the Walden Handle Co I was unfamiliar with them (never did see their ads in the old Iron Age journals)..... nonetheless all interesting and as I said before I recognize some jigging (peach seed is easy) but for some reason have a hard time recognizing others associated with different companies for some reason - I either don't study it hard enough or have a mental block .. Actually I recognize Robeson bone and their Worm Groove or Indian Trails, or Cattaraugus Bone with Indian Trails (Indian Trails was no doubt a term associated with Catt) - those are easy for me to see though I have examples of the Worm Groove/Indian Trail jigging from companies such as H&B or even Osgood Bray & Co (the latter who had some of their knives made by Burkinshaw (not all)...

[JAMESC41001]

Lee, there you go confusing me again. I was pretending to have this all figured out. I think a general understanding is about the best any of us will get to. I was trying to avoid the whole business to tell you the truth. I’ve observed a few types of jigged bone on honk Falls Knives and I’d like to offer some insight if possible. I am not there yet. Not sure if I will get there to be honest. Sometimes a piece of information comes from unexpected places. As you may know the honk falls factory burnt down in 1929. Many knives and parts were recovered from the ashes. This has been well esrablished. Some knives were able to be fixed i.e handles matched to the non effected side and some were totally rehandled. I have examples of both. Where when and who did these is a study unto itself. John Cushner started making knives in a converted barn using the Napanoch mark once again. I believe he also finished some Honks at the same time. One of the few ways to tell is to understand the different jigged bone used on both naps and honks. I have seen honks made from original parts with bone that was not from say 1921-1939. Only by being able to observe many examples all in one place with a few examples that can be dated does the picture start to come into focus. This is why a pic like Charlie provided is so helpful. This is what I hope to do. Not to have a definite answer but for others to work ofF as well. Providing there are others who have an interest. Either way anytime we can document some of this history it should be done.

[LongBlade]

Believe me Jay I am not trying to confuse - quite frankly I think you are doing a great job in what you have done so far in what I feel is a most difficult area to figure out at least in my opinion regarding jigging and bone... You have found info, assimilated findings and have made some suggestive conclusions - that is admirable in my book and much appreciated by many folks who have the interest ...

[JAMESC41001]

Thanks Lee. Appreciate that.

[danno50]

Another very nice Honk Falls, Ken!
Jay and Lee, very interesting discussion. I have nothing to add but I am enjoying reading and learning. I also had never heard of the Walden Cutlery Handle Co. until Jay's post. Had not heard of Salisbury before today either.
Thanks

[wlf]

Jay,Lee, Dan,and all that WCHCo jigging is what I call pick bone. It has the distinctive cross hatched x-ing that underlies the "flecking" seen on less worn examples. The worn examples show the darker underlying x-ing that is deeper than the "flecking.
I have offhand, three different manufacturers' examples on my farmers jacks: T-B
Empire ,NYK, and Ulster.

The question is did WCHCo supply these early handles to Empire and Ulster?

[JAMESC41001]

Lyle,my understanding is the arrangement was a cooperative agreement, an effort to control what was a fluctuating supply of bone. I assume the WCHC was a way of not only stabilizing the supply but a way of keeping the three stake holders organized. I don’t think the intent was to sell inventory so you would not see advertising. As far as supplying other companies I’m guessing that was not the intent either. That doesn’t mean it did not happen. I would think the dye and jigging would have been done at the handle co. Likely by hand at that time but maybe not. That’s important because it could be some cutler got his hands on some of this bone and put them on some other makers knife. Seens common for guys to have worked at multiple firms in those days. There were shut downs and lay offs and even guys being paid in parts. Makes things a little tricky. I would say if the situation was such that the big three Walden companies saw fit to control the supply like they did they probably were not looking to sell to much of it to others. But that is of course just my reasoning.

[KAW]

Another very nice Honk Falls, Ken! ... I also had never heard of the Walden Cutlery Handle Co. until Jay's post.

Thanks Dan... BTW... I did mention the Walden Handle Co. earlier here on page 7... as many have not heard of the handle company, I have seen many statements around the internet misconstruing the fact by stating that Schrade had bought out the Walden Knife Co., which is simply not true.

[wlf]

Forgot in my above post - long day

Jay - Do you think the peach seed jigging (which to me was classic Schrade) was done on a jigging machine as well?? I really don’t know how a jigging machine works - is it programmed to produce a certain pattern of jigging? !!!

Yes , Herman Williams has two of the jigging machines.

[LongBlade]

All very interesting and great discussion - those are nice examples Lyle ... NYK jigged bone on close examination looks to have extraordinarily deep jigging - almost seems like just a spider web of bone left untouched - very cool ... and Jay what you note makes sense to me that perhaps WHCo only supplied the local cutleries which I imagine made it easy for them to obtain their needed supplies of bone - it makes sense from a business sense for all ...

I love the discussions and speculation as it is good food for thought - but as I said long ago it is unfortunate that company records are not available and lost - and I say this not only in terms of handle companies but all the business records from the old knife manufacturers - would it not be cool to see the business and accounting logs which would possibly add some hard evidence ... as an aside at least old patents are archived and can be found which explain why certain knife patterns etc were designed as such - the patents have helped me to understand the background for a few knives - and Jay’s post on the jigging machine was very helpful!! I know some factories burned and records were lost but I always wonder what happened to all the other company records ...

[JAMESC41001]

http://www.thewaldenhouse.org/LHD%20201 ... dustry.pdf
Here is a link to some great info.

[wlf]

The depth shows on the NYK, more than anything else, because it has no wear. looking down you can see the deep X-ing as it comes to the edges of the NYK.

[danno50]

Another very nice Honk Falls, Ken! ... I also had never heard of the Walden Cutlery Handle Co. until Jay's post.

Thanks Dan... BTW... I did mention the Walden Handle Co. earlier here on page 7... as many have not heard of the handle company, I have seen many statements around the internet misconstruing the fact by stating that Schrade had bought out the Walden Knife Co., which is simply not true.

Apologies Ken! I went back and read page 7, you explained it very well.

[LongBlade]

The depth shows on the NYK, more than anything else, because it has no wear. looking down you can see the deep X-ing as it comes to the edges of the NYK.

Those photos show the x-ing really well and gives me now a 3-D aspect along with the original photo view Lyle ... I have to say no doubt some of the nicest jigging I’ve seen on any knife for sure ...

[JAMESC41001]

Lyle that is a great view of the jigging and a smart way to observe the detail. I must say the more you show that knife the more I like it! You have to stop taking the close ups like that! I would love to see one of the tools they used. Maybe Herman will share a pic of his. I remember asking him what kind of dye he uses but I can’t remember what he said. I will reach out to him. He is really a great person. I know several people here know him as well. I will take some pics of a couple knives from him. I think they would apply to this thread.

[KAW]

Back in April I kinda went on a muskrat kick... got two customized Schrades from Herman & one Canal Street Cutlery.
I haven't posted them here yet as I was attempting to go in chronological order... but since you mentioned it ...
The two from Herman are made with genuine jigged bone (no doubt made using his machine) & genuine "saw cut" bone.

[JAMESC41001]

Nice group there Ken.

[JAMESC41001]

Post card pic

[KAW]

Somehow I have misplaced my postcard weeks ago & it hasn't turn up yet...

...anyway back to where I left of chronologically speaking... I left off with Schrade Walden...
...and picking up with the introduction of the "modern" commemorative knife series...

from Codger_64 on BladeForums thread, "Schrade Walden Liberty Bell LB-1 - A significant knife" (Oct 8, 2004):

...the 1972 Russell SFO Kentucky Rifle by Schrade Walden [sic] is recognized as a significant starting point to the modern genre of collectable commemorative knives...

(and one I do not have yet...)

...less that a year later in 1973, Schrade Walden produced the first of their own commemorative sets. The first one issued was the LB-1 Liberty Bell followed closely by the second in the series, the PR-2 Paul Revere, and the third in early 1974, the MM-1 Minute Man. The three comprising a set known as the American Revolution Bicentennials.

[JohnR]

Picked up this NYK cattle knife last week.

[LongBlade]

Nice old Cattle knife John ... The bone is a real nice deep shade with sweet jigging, threaded bolster and blades look in pretty good condition!! As I'm thinking of it it is always interesting to see what the favorite blade was on old knives - I always find it amusing when a knife such as this has 3 blades with 2 on the larger size and yet the pen blade seemed to be the favorite... I always wonder why someone would buy that kind of knife and just use the smaller pen for the most part - but when one sees the prices in original catalogs the bigger knives were less money in general than the pen knives so maybe it was more bang for the $$$ in the old days - times have certainly changed based on market values for old knives ...

[wlf]

Another and I can't wait to see the stag whittler. Must be nice to have both incomes interested in knife collecting. You can always tell Donna this one is for you.

[LongBlade]

Another and I can't wait to see the stag whittler.

A stag whittler - I can't wait either ...

[RalphAlsip]

I recently acquired this Ulster example. It is my first and only (so far lol) Ulster example. I have been looking without success for an Ulster equal end cattle or cigar pattern and came across this knife. Any information regarding age, pattern, etc. would be appreciated. Length is 4” closed.

[JAMESC41001]

That is one fine knife Ralph. You are a smart man for not passing that up. Not sure but I believe that is an early mark. The double pull and the angle cut on the Swedge reminds me of the Napanoch blades. Very cool knife thanks for posting that one.