E. Felsenheld

[FRJ]

E. Felsenheld Maker New York. 1900-1920 3 5/8".

Apparently there is a "E. Felsenheld Germany", stamp from this company. 1900-1920

[edge213]

I like this one. Looks like a good old knife.

[KAW]

FRJ wrote in "Relics of beauty":
Nice one, Ken.
The ubiquitous swell end jack. Scarcely a more useful pocket knife.

Right back at you Joe!
... albeit yours is in a little better condition.

[FRJ]

Thank you, David and Ken.

[kootenay joe]

I have never seen old handles that look like these ones. I thought E. Felsenheld N.Y.C. was an importer and the knives were made in Germany ? There is no "Felsenheld" in Anthony Carter's "German Knife & Sword Makers", so there never was a cutlery manufacturer of this name in Germany.
Is it known for sure that Felsenheld had a knife making factory in N.Y. ?
Pivot pin in O.P. knife is dinged & slightly out of round ? (not sure)
Do you think it has been worked on ? Meaning any work at all even by prior owner trying to maybe tighten pivot.
kj

[FRJ]

I have never seen old handles that look like these ones.The knife is at least 98 years old. The covers looked a lot different when new. I thought E. Felsenheld N.Y.C. was an importer and the knives were made in Germany ? Perhaps they were but what are we to assume with a stamp that says "MAKER NEW YORK". There is no "Felsenheld" in Anthony Carter's "German Knife & Sword Makers", so there never was a cutlery manufacturer of this name in Germany. Never?
Is it known for sure that Felsenheld had a knife making factory in N.Y. ? Not by me.
Pivot pin in O.P. knife is dinged & slightly out of round ? (not sure) I think it is perfectly round and the impact that created the ding is probably responsible for the ghastly trench running from the bolster to the pin to the shield.
Do you think it has been worked on ? Meaning any work at all even by prior owner trying to maybe tighten pivot. There is absolutely no wobble at all in the action of this knife and I think that is attributable to the fine initial construction and not by any person manipulating the pivot by hammering on it.
kj

[kootenay joe]

Certainly covers looked differewnt when new but i have seen lots of 100 yr old used bone handled knives and i have never seen handles looking like these.
Carter's book does list and give information on every German knife and sword makers from 1850 to 1945. As Felsenheld is not mentioned in Carter's book there never was a knife manufacturer of this name in Germany.
The "Maker New York" is an odd way to mark a knife. I wonder if they were importing knives from Germany and trying to avoid import rules or duties ?
That blade action feels 'normal' (my interpretation of what you posted) is a good sign that they are original to that frame.
So a rare knife from a knife factory at an unknown location in N.Y. State.
Would be interesting to see other Felsenheld knives posted.
kj

[FRJ]

Try a search, kj, there are a few other posts about Felsenheld.

[Mumbleypeg]

If read the OP knife's stamp as E. Felsenheld Maker, New York. In other words, the maker was E. Felsenheld, located in New York. So I'm confused about where the discussion about Germany comes from, as it pertains to this knife? What did I miss?

Ken

Edit - Goins' shows two related markings. They are "E. Felsenheld Germany g 1900-1920" and "E. Felsenheld New York Maker g 1900-1920". It says nothing about who made the knives or where. Unless information is given otherwise, Goins' doesn't imply who made the knives or where located, only that these markings were observed. Read anything else into it at your own risk. At least, that's my understanding. In the "Forward" of his book, Goins says (I'm paraphrasing) the dates preceded by g are those for which no information is available. He used his knowledge and experience to approximate these dates based on pattern,construction, materials, and methods used in manufacturing the piece.

Dates preceded by c are those for which facts are available.

[FRJ]

What did I miss? Ken

Ken, in the OP I stated that there was a Felsenheld Germany. I got this information from Goin's.
So there is a German connection.

[Mumbleypeg]

Thanks Joe. I figured it out when I looked at Goins. See my edit to my post above. I think the confusion comes from how people interpret what is available in Goins. Just because a knife is marked E. Felsenhold Germany does not necessarily mean a German-based company called E. Felsenhold manufactured it. Only that it was made in Germany. German manufacturers made many knives marked with other company's names on them. And the one marked "E. Felsenhold Maker New York" could have been made by any one of several manufacturers located in New York - or elsewhere even (it's possible the jobber only could have been a New York- based company).

Ken

[kootenay joe]

Are the handles worn down peach seed bone ?
Schrade Cut Co had about 5 different styles of peach seed jigging over the years 1905 to 1946 and each would have worn down slightly differently.
kj

[FRJ]

Thanks Ken.
I really appreciate you taking the time to post that information and your comments. It's helpful to the thread.

kj, the jigging doesn't look like peach seed to me. The jigging on my knife looks more elongated.

[kootenay joe]

"The jigging on my knife looks more elongated"
Yes it does. I was trying to connect this knife to a known USA manufacturer and peach seed is the closest jigging i can think of. Charlie C. did a post (here or BF ?) showing at least 5 variations of peach seed jigging on Schrade Cut. Co. knives. The earliest one(?) had a more elongated jigging but would it wear to look like this ? Maybe but probably not.
It is a mystery knife. Was there an E. Felsenheld factory in N.Y. State ? Or is this a contract knife and if so made by which N.Y. ? knife manufacturer ?
This thread needs input from collectors more experienced with USA folding knives than i am.
kj

[FRJ]

Charlie C. is an accomplished collector and researcher in cutlery. I would leave the five variations of peach seed jigging to him.
I could not and would not ever try to differentiate peach seed jigging no matter how often such differences occur.
As for wear, I simply don't care.
It is not a mystery knife. It's history is quite well known somewhere.

[wlf]

I had a Holley with the exact jigging as I can see by the pictures here. Color and all.

Early Schrades are on the left:

[FRJ]

What beautiful knives, Lyle.
Thanks for showing them.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Lyle. That is the picture i was thinking of. However none of them look like they would resemble the O.P. handles when worn down.
kj

[LongBlade]

I agree that the knives shown by Lyle do not resemble the jigging pattern of the OP knife - and thanks for posting those Lyle ... I will say however that the definite jigging pattern is consistent with the 3 knives on left (Schrade) vs those on the right side (Holley?)... That is one of the best examples I have seen where even I can see a definitive difference between jigging patterns between companies... Identifying a knife by jigging pattern also seems difficult to me except for Schrade - the jigging on Schrades is not doubt easier, for at least me, to identify...

[wlf]

Fellas these are all the scans of only Schrades with the earliest on the left , following chronologically right, bottom left ,bottom right .

These are Charlie C's scans and his information.

[wlf]

If I was to guess ,I'd say Joe's knife is Holley manufactured or at least has the Holley era bone from whoever supplied Holley.

I bought that Holley off eBay just to have a look at the bone. Bone handles intrigue me.

[kootenay joe]

What those Schrade pics show is that what we commonly refer to as "peach seed" jigging was only used towards the end of Schrade Cut Co era. For most of SCC the peach seed jigging looked quite different, more like the pits in a peach seed.
The marking: "E. Felsenheld Maker New York" is odd. Why "Maker" if there was no Felsenheld knife factory ?
kj

[wlf]

I have or had several early knives that were close similitude of the peach seed look. I think the jigging at Scrade had something to do with how old the cutters were on the machine too.

[LongBlade]

KJ - I understand your point but as some did at the time perhaps they had their knives manufactured by others despite noting themselves as a maker... or possibly their own shop was so small little is known about it while at the same time contracting out some knives.

Lyle - I agree with your comment of who was doing the jigging... I think some cutlers had their own style and when they were gone and another replaced them so did the jigging - unless they had apprenticed somebody to learn jigging and pick up their style... Going back to the peach seed look I have to say that is one hard to miss style... I am partial myself to worm groove or Indian Trails on top of a jigging pattern ...

[Mumbleypeg]

The marking: "E. Felsenheld Maker New York" is odd. Why "Maker" if there was no Felsenheld knife factory ?
kj

Moore Maker Matador, TX - the name says "Maker" but they don't make knives. The company is located in Matador, and they make cattle de-horners, fencing tools and other ranching tools in their shop in Matador. But the knives with "Moore Maker Matador, TX" stamped on them are made elsewhere, by other companies.

I'm not saying that is the situation with E. Felsenheld Maker, because I don't know. Just giving an example where "Maker" is stamped on the knife but not made by the company whose name is also on the knife. And not made in the location stamped on it.

Ken