The All Scout Knives Thread

[ronfish]

The only one that I believe fits the time period would be an imperial five blade deluxe knife that has handles that look similar to the one you posted and it does have a round shield. I believe it fits the 1957 timeframe - It came in a fancy orange box with the cellophane viewing window. There was an alternate version With a round shield that had smooth handles that I believe was designated as “simulated wood”. I will post a pic - I have I have a half dozen in the original boxes with the original display carton.

Wow! Very impressive collection! That is most likely the one then. How much would one in nice condition go for? And what's
in the red, white and blue boxes?

Depending on how mint you want it to be, $30~65 typically without box. That is a half dozen Ulster #1996 4 blade knives in the RWB boxes - 1960’s model.

[gunhawk]

The only one that I believe fits the time period would be an imperial five blade deluxe knife that has handles that look similar to the one you posted and it does have a round shield. I believe it fits the 1957 timeframe - It came in a fancy orange box with the cellophane viewing window. There was an alternate version With a round shield that had smooth handles that I believe was designated as “simulated wood”. I will post a pic - I have I have a half dozen in the original boxes with the original display carton.

Wow! Very impressive collection! That is most likely the one then. How much would one in nice condition go for? And what's
in the red, white and blue boxes?

Depending on how mint you want it to be, $30~65 typically without box. That is a half dozen Ulster #1996 4 blade knives in the RWB boxes - 1960’s model.

Thanks very much for the info! I appreciate your time!

Ed

[Miller Bro's]

Miller scout/utility knife.

[philco]

Dimitri what is the purpose for the semi circular notch in the caplifter blade ?

[Landersknives]

Here are a few knives. Hope you like’em.

[FRJ]

Dimitri what is the purpose for the semi circular notch in the caplifter blade ?

Good question.

Ed, that is fine collection there.

Here is one I got today.
The guy had a ten dollar tag on the knife and said he could do better on the price. I asked him what he felt comfortable with.
He said $7. OK.

[Miller Bro's]

Dimitri what is the purpose for the semi circular notch in the caplifter blade ?

Phil, it's a tack puller

[kootenay joe]

I have a few 'Scout' type knives and more than a few questions. Some of the answers might already be in this thread but it is too large to read from post #1 to here. Over the next week or so i will post pictures and questions and hope the knowledgeable Scout collectors will help me out.
I once read that Boy Scouts of America went to court to prevent the word "scout" from being used on knives that were not official BSA scout knives. The judgement was in their favor but i don't know what year that was.
Here are 5 knives all with the word "Scout" on the shield: from the bottom: Robeson, Challenge, Camillus Sword Brand, Robeson, and Empire.
I will show detailed pics of each later. How old must these knives be based on the "Scout" ruling ?
thanks, kj

[ScoutKnives]

Nice knives Roland ,
Sorry I don’t have an answer to your question as I pretty much only collect official scout knives .
I’m really digging the challenge and the Empire though .

Mike

[kootenay joe]

Here are pics of Challenge & Empire. "Challenge" is hard to discern but "Bridgeport" is easily seen. The Empire has been buffed.
kj

[Meridian_Mike]

Nice group of scouts you have there KJ....

Mike

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Mike. I am hoping to get answers to question asked in my first post here.
kj

[bestgear]

Roland - I researched this subject a few years back for a story that I was writing. Below are some of my notes on the subject but to simply answer your question, on June 15, 1916 President Woodrow Wilson signed a Title 36 congressional charter protecting the words or phrases used by the Boy Scouts of America" (see section 7 below).

In 1916, the 6-year-old Boy Scouts of America faced increasing competition from other organizations; groups that wished to capitalize on the growing interest in all things Scouting generated by the BSA. These imitators, Scouting magazine reported at the time, could “destroy the meaning of the Scout uniform and emblems” and rob boys of “the knowledge and the dexterity for which these emblems now stand.” Something had to be done to protect the BSA “from those who are seeking to profit by the good repute and high standing and popularity of the Scout movement by imitating it in name alone,” Scouting magazine wrote.

So, Congress and President Woodrow Wilson stepped in and on June 15, 1916, Wilson signed a bill into law that granted federal incorporation to the Boy Scouts of America and protected the BSA’s name and insignia. The BSA was granted a rare Title 36 congressional charter, which is presented to select patriotic and national organizations. The act was passed with the unanimous consent of both Houses of Congress. Other Title 36 organizations, along with the year in which they were chartered, include:
• American National Red Cross (later the American Red Cross), 1905
• The American Legion, 1919
• Girl Scouts of the United States of America, 1950
• Big Brothers Big Sisters of America, 1958
• Boys & Girls Clubs of America, 1956
• Little League Baseball Inc., 1964

This is the full text of the BSA’s charter

Sixty-Fourth Congress of the United States of America At the First Session Begun and Held at the City of Washington On Monday, the Sixth Day of December One Thousand Nine Hundred and Fifteen.

AN ACT To Incorporate the Boy Scouts of America and for Other Purposes

Section 1.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That Colin H. Livingstone and Ernest P. Bicknell, of Washington, District of Columbia; Benjamin L. Dulaney, of Bristol, Tennessee; Milton A. McRae, of Detroit, Michigan; David Starr Jordan, of Berkeley, California; F. L. Seely, of Asheville, North Carolina; A. Stamford White, of Chicago, Illinois; Daniel Carter Beard, of Flushing, New York; George D. Pratt, of Brooklyn, New York; Charles D. Hart, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Franklin C. Hoyt, Jeremaiah W. Jenks, Charles P. Neill, Frank Presbrey, Edgar M. Robinson, Mortimer L. Schiff, and James E. West, of New York, New York; G. Barrett Rich, Junior, of Buffalo, New York; Robert Garrett, of Baltimore, Maryland; John Sherman Hoyt, of Norwalk, Connecticut; Charles C. Jackson, of Boston, Massachusetts; John H. Nicholson, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; William D. Murray, of Plainfield, New Jersey; and George D. Porter, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, their associates and successors, are hereby created a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia, where its domicile shall be.

Section 2.
That the name of this corporation shall be “Boy Scouts of America,” and by that name it shall have perpetual succession, with power to sue and be sued in courts of law and equity within the jurisdiction of the United States; to hold such real and personal estate as shall be necessary for corporate purposes, and to receive real and personal property by gift, devise, or bequest; to adopt a seal, and the same to alter and destroy at pleasure; to have offices and conduct its business and affairs within and without the District of Columbia and in the several States and Territories of the United States; to make and adopt bylaws, rules, and regulations not inconsistent with the law of the United States of America, or any State thereof, and generally to do all such acts and things (including the establishment of regulations for the election of associates and successors) as may be necessary to carry into effect the provisions of this Act and promote the purposes of said corporation.

Section 3.
That the purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts.

Section 4.
That said corporation may acquire, by way of gift, all the assets of the existing national organization of Boy Scouts, a corporation under the laws of the District of Columbia, and defray and provide for any debts or liabilities to the discharge of which said assets shall be applicable; but said corporation shall have no power to issue certificates of stock or to declare or pay dividends, its object and purposes being solely of a benevolent character and not for pecuniary profit to its members.

Section 5.
That the governing body of the said Boy Scouts of America shall consist of an executive board composed of citizens of the United States. The number, qualifications, and terms of office of members of the executive board shall be prescribed by the bylaws. The persons mentioned in the first section of this Act shall constitute the first executive board and shall serve until their successors are elected and have qualified. Vacancies in the executive board shall be filled by a majority vote of the remaining members thereof. The bylaws may prescribe the number of members of the executive board necessary to constitute a quorum of the board, which number may be less than the majority of the whole number of the board. The executive board shall have power to make and to amend the bylaws, and, by two-thirds vote of the whole board at a meeting called for this purpose, may authorize and cause to be executed mortgages and liens upon the property of the corporation. The executive board may, by resolution passed by a majority of the whole board, designate three or more of their number to constitute an executive or governing committee, of which a majority shall constitute a quorum, which committee, to the extent provided in said resolution or in the bylaws of the corporation, shall have and exercise the powers of the executive board in the management of the business affairs of the corporation, and may have power to authorize the seal of the corporation to be affixed to all papers which may require it. The executive board, by the affirmative vote of a majority of the whole board, may appoint any other standing committees, and such standing committees shall have and may exercise such powers as shall be conferred or authorized by the bylaws. With the consent in writing and pursuant to an affirmative vote of a majority of the members of said corporation, the executive board shall have authority to dispose in any manner of the whole property of the corporation.

Section 6.
That an annual meeting of the incorporators, their associates and successors, shall be held once in every year after the year of incorporation, at such time and place as shall be prescribed in the bylaws, when the annual reports of the officers and executive board shall be presented, and members of the executive board elected for the ensuing year. Special meetings of the corporation may be called upon such notice as may be prescribed in the bylaws. The number of members which shall constitute a quorum at any annual or special meeting shall be prescribed in the bylaws. The members and executive board shall have power to hold their meetings and keep the seal, books, documents, and papers of the corporation within or without the District of Columbia.

Section 7.
That said corporation shall have the sole and exclusive right to have and to use, in carrying out its purposes, all emblems and badges, descriptive or designating marks, and words or phrases now or heretofore used by the Boy Scouts of America in carrying out its program, it being distinctly and definitely understood, however, that nothing in this Act shall interfere or conflict with established or vested rights.

Section 8.
That on or before the first day of April of each year the said Boy Scouts of America shall make and transmit to Congress a report of its proceedings for the year ending December thirty-first preceding.

Section 9.
That Congress shall have the right to repeal, alter, or amend this Act at any time.

[kootenay joe]

Thank you Tom. You put a lot of time into posting all that.
But surely the knives i have posted are not pre 1916 ?
Is it possible that this 1916 'order' applied only to imported items, not domestic ?
kj

[bestgear]

My presumption is that the BSA was more focused on increasing membership and developing their program than they were on protecting ther "brand" with a pocket knife manufacturer. Today, they would pull out all the stops to protect their brand and numerous court cases support that including one against a group called Hacker Scouts.

[peanut740]

Perhaps they could protect the words "Boy scout or scouts";but not just the word "scout".

[kootenay joe]

The BSA court action i was referring to was to block imported knives with "Scout" on the shield. I recall it as having occured in 1930's. Prior to this there were many German made 4 blade Utility folders with "Scout" on the shield coming into USA.
I am still hoping someone can give a date range for the 5 "Scout" branded knives i posted.
Here are detailed pics of the 2 Robesons. One has the master nail nick on the opposite side to normal. Was this made for left handed people ?
Note that both are marked "642214". The slot screw driver blade has file like inner edge on the one with a bail but is plain on the 'left handed' one.
kj

[kootenay joe]

Here are pics of the last of these 5, a 4 line Camillus "Sword Brand".
Did Camillus usually orient the shield 'upside down' ?
kj

[thefarside]

Roland,
I have been searching my records for information regarding the early law suit initiated by the BSA relative to the sale of non authorized scout knives. I have not been able to turn up any information regarding the BSA going after any one who produced a knife with a Scout only marked shield. I do remember stories about the BSA threatening litigation for use of the official Boy Scout logo without paying a fee. I am still looking for detail regarding one particular law suit but it remains lost in my archives, From memory, the BSA sued LF&C for failure to pay royalty on the camp/scout knives they produced with the official scout shield and etch on the blade. The suit was settled in the favor of the BSA and LF&C then (some believe in spite) began to market a camp/scout style knife etched The Official Boys Trapper Knife with the image of a boy in a scout hat. This knife also had a similarly marked shield and at first glance appeared to be an official BSA item.
The following is a list (not all inclusive) of manufacturers who paid the BSA to market knives with official scout logos on the shields or blades. Only officially licesenced knives were sold at the BSA store, and through retailers who were authorized to sell official BSA items.

Official Scout Knife information
Only a handful of knife makers made Official Boy Scout knives. Below is the list of Makers of Official BSA knives and when they produced them ( this means the knife had an official BSA shield or etch and the manufacturer paid the BSA a royalty. These knives are the only knives sold through the BSA store). The * notes official BSA endorsed knives outside the traditional camp/scout folding style.
 New York Knife (1911-1931)
 Remington (1923-1939)
 Ulster (1923-1940)
 L F & C [Landers, Frary, & Clark] (1931-1939)
 *Cattaraugus (1933-1940 - "Whit-L Craft" 3 & 4 blade whittlers)
 Pal (1940-1942)
 Camillus (1946-2007)
 *Western (1948-1979 – Non camp/Utility, fixed blades)
 Imperial (Early 1950s-1980s, primarily Camillus blade built & re-handled by Imperial)
 Ulster (1963-1985 round Shield)
 *Wenger (1982-2002 – Wennger SAKs with BSA logo)
 *Kershaw (1980s-Present – Non Camp)
 *Victorinox (2000- Present Vic Saks with BSA logo)
 China (Taylor Brands. LLC) 2008-Present
 Bear MGC - 2009-2011 –( non camp knives except for the 2010 Jamboree Camp knife, possible 2009 production of 2009 camp knife
*KA-BAR - I was told Union Cut paid a fee to manufacture some BSA straight knives in the 30's, but I am still unable to find this
information to be factual

It is interesting to note that the BSA also, sells the rights to manufacturers, to sell "officially licensed" products which may or may not have any BSA markings on the product, but usually only on the packaging. These items will not be sold in the BSA store.

I will continue to look for my information on my BSA lawsuit(s) relative to early litigation. I am told the legal department at the BSA still has to contact several manufacturers of all types of goods for name/logo infringement, but most are handled with letter requesting cease and desist and/or the manufacturer accepting to pay a fee to "officially license" a short run, rather than a royaly per item with the official BSA logo on the product.
Please understand this information should NOT be looked upon as the gospel, but merely the memories of an old guy who has been chasing pocketknives for a long time

[zzyzzogeton]

The BSA court action i was referring to was to block imported knives with "Scout" on the shield. I recall it as having occured in 1930's. Prior to this there were many German made 4 blade Utility folders with "Scout" on the shield coming into USA.
I am still hoping someone can give a date range for the 5 "Scout" branded knives i posted.
Here are detailed pics of the 2 Robesons. One has the master nail nick on the opposite side to normal. Was this made for left handed people ?
Note that both are marked "642214". The slot screw driver blade has file like inner edge on the one with a bail but is plain on the 'left handed' one.
kj

Joe, could that "file-like" feature on the screwdriver have been intended for use as a match striker surface?

[philco]

One addition to the list above would be Case Cutlery Co. which produced its first run of official Boy Scout knives in, I believe, 2005.

[Quick Steel]

thefarside, Thank you for posting your list, gospel or not. Highly useful.

[kootenay joe]

Quote: "could that "file-like" feature on the screwdriver have been intended for use as a match striker surface?"
Yes but it is cut like a manicure blade so i think it might be filing a fingernail in the field (until you get home to a real manicure file).
kj

[kootenay joe]

The reason i mentioned a BSA court action in my OP was in hopes of helping to date the knives, all of which prominently display the word "Scout" yet are not official BSA knives.
The BSA legal action i refer to is described somewhere in the BRL forum at BF from maybe 8-10 years ago. It was to stop the large number of German import knives using the word "Scout" on the front shield. Gutmann Cutlery was importing a large number of German knives up until WW II.
Can someone give possible date ranges for any or all of the 5 knives posted above ?
The 'lefty' Robeson has on the punch blade: "Pat App/25-05". Would this be 1925 or 1905 ?
kj

[Mumbleypeg]

From 600 Scout Knives by Joseph R. Kerr

While BSA was unsuccessful in court preventing knife companies from using shields of SCOUT, or SCOUTS PREPARE, etc., BSA was able to prevent companies from using the official Boy Scouts of America name on knives. While at least New York Knife Company and Remington were exceptions, BSA denied most requests by cutlers to manufacture official knives unless the cutler would also cease manufacturing unofficial "scout" knives. The volume of unofficial knives made ceasing too expensive for several cutlers. The cutler/BSA disagreement seems to continue until the post-WWII knife market restructuring. The significance of the 1943 retirement of James E. West, long-term BSA national executive, may also have been a factor.

Ken