Celluloid outgassing question...

[John Carter]

Celluloid knives should be stored seperate from other knife material to prevent gassing from damaging other non celluloid knives, but should celluloid be stored seperate from eachother for the same reason?

Especially since celluloid is sensitive to this chemical reaction to begin with. If one knife starts deteriorating, and in the very early stages of deterioration cannot be easily detected; might it spread/initiate the reaction in any knife in close proximity.

Wonder if this is a concern.

[supratentorial]

Celluloid knives should be stored seperate from other knife material to prevent gassing from damaging other non celluloid knives, but should celluloid be stored seperate from eachother for the same reason?

Especially since celluloid is sensitive to this chemical reaction to begin with. If one knife starts deteriorating, and in the very early stages of deterioration cannot be easily detected; might it spread/initiate the reaction in any knife in close proximity.

Wonder if this is a concern.

Yes. One celluloid knife can cause damage to another celluloid knife for the same reason so it is best to store them separate. Sometimes it's not practical... like if you have 200 knives with celluloid covers... but that would be best.

[Quick Steel]

I wonder if anyone has ever experimented with celluloid. Could covering the scales and bolsters with, say, Renaissance Wax provide protection against deterioration/out gassing?

[XX Case XX]

Celluloid knives should be stored seperate from other knife material to prevent gassing from damaging other non celluloid knives, but should celluloid be stored seperate from eachother for the same reason?

Especially since celluloid is sensitive to this chemical reaction to begin with. If one knife starts deteriorating, and in the very early stages of deterioration cannot be easily detected; might it spread/initiate the reaction in any knife in close proximity.

Wonder if this is a concern.

Yes, it is a concern. That's why I only have one, and it's not anywhere near anything else...

_____________
Mike

[Berryb]

It seems all celluloid will break down but knife handles seem to fall apart at a greater rate. My theory is that the thing knives have in common with each other but not with other celluloid items is oil. I'm trying an experiment; I only use vegetable oil on celluloid knives, and then pretty sparingly. I also don't keep them in closed containers or where they will be exposed to sunlight. I may be nuts but like I say it's an experiment.
Bruce

[John Carter]

They're still around and often look fine and so many years after their manufacture. But, that's what we see. How many are lost to outgassing that we don't see.

[supratentorial]

Sunlight is known to cause problems. It is best to keep celluloid away from sunlight. Why did you pick vegetable oil over mineral oil? Does vegetable oil go rancid?

I've heard that the Smithsonian stores metal artifacts in climate controlled rooms in acid free boxes with open tops. I don't know how they store celluloid though.

[XX Case XX]

They're still around and often look fine and so many years after their manufacture. But, that's what we see. How many are lost to outgassing that we don't see.

Here's one...Click on the images to get a better look.

____________
Mike

[LongBlade]

Celluloid outgassing is no doubt a nightmare when it happens and this is a good example... Here's a few pics of a Winchester I came across in an old antique shop where the owner had this knife sitting in the middle of all his other knives together in a display - not pretty... I explained to the owner what was going on and that he needed to remove it to protect his other knives - he appreciated the info but seemed to be skeptical... before he tossed it as garbage he asked me if I wanted it for free ... for the heck of it I took it as an example to photo for folks and threw it in a small box in the basement... haven't checked it in 4 -6 months but was curious how far this would go - as you can see it has destroyed the springs, bolster and top half of master blade but did not affect much the pen on other end (also note the shrunken handles near the bolster) which is normal symptoms of the dreaded outgassing - check in particular the last photo for the worse of it... as such and for all my collecting time I have collected only a few examples (literally 2-3 knives with celluloid) but have always put a low price limit on any celluloid because in the end it may just go "poof"... so I get photos asap for the archives just in case of the phenomenon... celluloid can be quite attractive but the risks outweigh the benefits in my opinion...

[KnifeSlinger#81]

It seems that the ivory celluloid holds up pretty well, dare I say better than other colors.

[John Carter]

Wow, is a shame nothing could be done to prevent. I was reading a past post that had an interesting link to a conservationist page.

Apparently, this degradation process begins when the scales are actually manufactured. Pressures to the cellulose when created. Still reading up on this...

This from the article:

The instability of celluloid is both inherent and environmental. If the environment of a celluloid object, in storage or on exhibit, is adequately controlled, deterioration may be slowed but never entirely halted.

http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/ar ... 2-003.html

[americanedgetech]

To summarize... Celluloid batches are all different. The process of manufacture is the same or similar but the purity of the main ingredients, and the cleanliness of the manufacturing process are all factors that determine if YOUR celluloid will survive longer than MIne. In the end either Nitric acid or sulfuric acid will be released, and the reaction that starts this can not be prevented.
It's just the nature of the compound.

It's not worth the risk or the trouble IMHO.

[espn77]

To summarize... Celluloid batches are all different. The process of manufacture is the same or similar but the purity of the main ingredients, and the cleanliness of the manufacturing process are all factors that determine if YOUR celluloid will survive longer than MIne. In the end either Nitric acid or sulfuric acid will be released, and the reaction that starts this can not be prevented.
It's just the nature of the compound.

It's not worth the risk or the trouble IMHO.

I disagree, there is one way to 100% guarantee your knife won't gas and will stop the gassing process, or at Least stop the signs of gassing. Put that knife in your pocket and use it every day. People smarter than me have studied this and still don't have the answers but I believe if a person wiped down there celluloid/pyremite knives everyday you will never see them do anything. I have no scientific basis for this theory. Just my opinion. I do think the worst place for them is in a tight wrapped knife role put into the back of a safe, to be opened once every couple of months or even years.

[americanedgetech]

I have been looking for any data base on comparative studies on ANY celluloid product, and I might be looking in all the wrong places.
I thought the film industry/preservation/conservstion industries...
It seems that the formulas, and the lack of controlled manufacturing has created a monster of days gone by.

What I am getting at is no one can state for fact that (example) a 1933 Winchester celluloid stockman will last when a 1953 Schrade pen knife will fail.
There are too many variables in how, where, what, when. Realistically the humidity on the day the celluloid was made does have a direct effect on the handle in your pocket today.

I am not trying to be a chemist on the internet but I do understand enough about chemistry to understand the issue, and the issue is that there are no 100% ratings in celluloid other than it IS an unstable compound.

EDC carry? Great idea. No kidding. Some of them are beautiful knives, and they should be enjoyed for as long as they can stay with us. Maybe some will last another 200 years! some never made it out of the box without failing.

I'm glad that they no longer make these sort of engineering mistakes or people might wake up in their car after taking a sleeping pill.

[mrwatch]

I thought the film industry/preservation/conservation industries...
I have seen a story on how movie film is stored in vaults due to the high flammability of it. some clock collectors have been backing away from the antique wind up table clocks due to the Celluloid shrinking and twisting. At several antique malls I have seen pocket knives totally ruined in with their good ones. The owner of the booth or show case is rarely ever their to put a bug in their ear. A lot of ladies vanity sets are made of it, comb, hair brush, powder boxes, hand mirrors and hair receivers. I don't remember seeing any problem with those.

[americanedgetech]

That is the entire point sir. It's a crap shoot. Some items appear stable while others don't make it and the reason is not yet determined.
What made some celluloid stable? Perhaps it was the dust in the air from the coal shipping depot down the street or perhaps it was the lime in the local water?

It is easy to de-construct celluloid in a lab to determine the exact composition BUT some of the "ingredients" are lost in the process because no one knows exactly what they are testing/looking for.

I'll try to find an article I read on Billiard balls from the 20's or 30's I believe...
The issue with them was the balls would Explode. Literally!
The material would begin the decomposition process in it's core. The resulting acid(s) vapor created pressure inside the ball, and an impact would fracture the ball enough to blow it apart. Not a flame style explosion but an acidic vapor burst.

Back then it was a big deal like the exploding Ford Pinto fuel tanks from the 70's. Billiards was a very popular pass time.

Edit:
This is not the article I read but it will suffice for the moment to show the point.
This is to Smithsonion.com... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180962751/

[John Carter]

I wonder why bakelite, another plastic that was extremely popular early in the 20th.century, wasn't used on the manufacturing of knife scales? Maybe to brittle?

As far as i know bakelite doesn't have these same problems.

[americanedgetech]

Bakelite is extremely stable, and is still used widely today.
I think it is not so much that it is brittle as much as the fact that it is available in any color... as long as that color is black.

Maybe someone knows of some handle examples in Bakelite?

Edit: If you ever want an interesting read, Read about Leo Bakeland, and what happened with his family once the money started pouring in... You could not make up the tale. The Kardashians come to mind.

http://allthingsbakelite.com/diaries-jo ... baekeland/

[John Carter]

Bakelite is extremely stable, and is still used widely today.
I think it is not so much that it is brittle as much as the fact that it is available in any color... as long as that color is black.

Maybe someone knows of some handle examples on Bakelite?

Yep - color surly must have been a factor. Always black or brown.

[John Carter]

Question: what is the difference between celluloid and composite? How can you tell the difference between the two?

Of the three pictured-

1. the top Boker is celluloid, although in Stewart's Knife Guide there are examples pictured under composite that are very similar.

2. Unsure if this Imperial Hollow Ground serpentine is celluloid or composite.

3. The bottom Kutmaster- 75% confident is celluloid; especially as the covers appear slightly shrinking.

Any idea on 2 & 3?

[John Carter]

[americanedgetech]

Chemical composition is the difference...

Testing for celluloid is quite easy.
"How to Test for Celluloid"
Rubbing Method – Rub the piece between your finger and thumb until it's hot and then smell it. ...
Hot Water Method – Run hot water over your piece and smell it, if it smells like camphor then your piece is Celluloid.
Hot Needle Method – Heat a needle until it's hot and poke your item.
A Lesson in Celluloid | Oh, for the Love of Vintage!
https://theloveofvintage.wordpress.com/ ... celluloid/

Here is a good article on Bakelite, and how to recognize it...
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/gale/

[John Carter]

Thanks fot the info and leads.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Dennis Ellingson wrote a very informative article in the OKCA Newsletter.

I think it is posted somewhere on AAPK.

Celluloid is a crapshoot. Some will deteriorate with or without a stimulus, others will last for a very, very long time.

A former director of The National Knife Museum treated outgassing knives with disassembly and coating ALL parts with Rust-O-Leum clear coat, then reassembly.

I suppose that's a reasonable preservation procedure for an outgassing, but otherwise very collectible knife, if one has the skills, but not practical as a preventive measure.

Robeson Cutlery Company used to coat the blades with some form of clear coat on knives that went on their display boards. You'll find one every so often with that coating starting to flake off in spots. Whatever it was, it is easily removed with fingernail polish remover.

Charlie Noyes

[orvet]

Here is the link to Dennis Ellingson's article on celluloid. It is posted on the Oregon Knife Collectors Association, (OKCA) website.
http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

There was a later article published in Knife World a few years ago that builds on this article by Dennis.
If I can find a link to it I will post it as well.




Regarding Bakelite used as knife handles: it was used by some companies, though I can give you a list of names at the moment.
I believe there was one company that used Bakelite handles on their TL-29s.