Elephant Ivory Handles

[dcgm4]

There are some gorgeous knives being shown in this thread! Here's a large Samuel Jackson whittler.

[kootenay joe]

Dave, it looks like whittler is just over 5" ? How old do you think it is ? 2 springs or one ??
kj

[dcgm4]

It's 5 5/8" closed and dates between 1833 and 1874. It's one single spring, but it's been split in a unique way.

Part of the backspring was cut out to create the two springs for the pen blade and leather punch. In between the two springs is a brass bit on a pivot. Moving the brass bit pushes the master blade up and out of the handle so it can be easily opened since the blade lacks a nail nick or a long pull.

[QTCut5]

Now that is one cool knife!

Master blade is practically a melon tester...seems like it'd be hard to whittle anything with such a long blade.

So, does the brass spring-wedge push against the cutting edge of the master blade to open it?

~Q~

[dcgm4]

Thanks, Q.

The knife is more like a folding dirk, but because of the placement of two smaller blades opposite the master blade, it's technically whittler. Like you said, it'd be hard to actually whittle with it. Pretty sure I'd end up with a nasty cut or two if I tried.

The brass bit does push against the cutting edge to get the master blade out. It rotates on the pivot slowly, so it pushes on the cutting edge gently enough where you don't have to worry about it dulling the blade.

[kootenay joe]

Dave it is a true split spring whittler, and more with the 'blade lifter'. I have seen pictures of this knife in the BRL forum at BF about 5 or more years ago.
Is it your knife ?
kj

[dcgm4]

That's my knife, kj. I sent it to Bernard Levine shortly after I got it to get a value estimation for insurance purposes.

[kootenay joe]

Wow. I think it is one of the most significant of all vintage USA folding knives. It is worthy of being in a Smithsonian museum display.
kj

[Sut Tatersaul]

Hi, All:
At the risk of being laughed at by you real Ivory handled Knife collectors, I am posting pictures of my knives that have possible ivory handles. I lack the skill, and expertise to tell if any of them have real ivory handles. The only one that i would say has real ivory, is the little Henckels pen knife, and I'm probably wrong on it. The top knife shown, is a Bridge Cutlery Co. of St Louis knife. The second is a Winchester Trademark made in USA #2089, the third , is a Case xx Best #44047P. The fourth a Schrade Walden N.Y. Stainless steel Fruit knife. The fifth, is a J.A. Henckles Pen knife. The first three of the knives were acquired by the "Drop Knife" game played many years ago on construction jobs. The Schrade Walden fruit knife in Florida at a gun show, many years ago. The little J.A.Henckels pen knife, was a present from my Sons many years ago. I would like to have the opinion of the Ivory experts on this forum, Do any of them have real ivory handles?

[gsmith7158]

That's my knife, kj. I sent it to Bernard Levine shortly after I got it to get a value estimation for insurance purposes.

Dave I referenced that pic from BF just the other day in another thread. I had no idea it was your knife. What an absolute treasure you have there.

[kootenay joe]

Sut, the 4 blade knife & single blade knife are not ivory.
The other 3 i would need to see in focus close ups of handle to be sure but i don't think they are ivory.
kj

[dcgm4]

Wow. I think it is one of the most significant of all vintage USA folding knives. It is worthy of being in a Smithsonian museum display.
kj

Thanks, kj! That'd be really cool if the Smithsonian or any museum would want to display the knife. It's at least innovative. So far it's the only knife I've seen with that mechanism to open the blade.

Dave I referenced that pic from BF just the other day in another thread. I had no idea it was your knife. What an absolute treasure you have there.

Thanks a lot, Greg! It's without a doubt the centerpiece of my collection. What was the thread about?

[dcgm4]

Sut, the easiest way to tell real ivory from a synthetic or bone is to look for a wood-like grain. If it has a grain like wood it's most likely ivory.

[gsmith7158]

Dave that was in the Camillus 72 thread. We were talking about the difference between true split springs and modern split springs.

[kootenay joe]

Here is a 3 3/8" pen knife with excellent ivory handles & sunk joints, both blades marked "Gregory & Co/Sheffield", no "England". However this is not a pre 1891 knife because both back tangs are stamped "Stainless", making it no earlier than 1920's. Knife just arrived, from ebay, not at all expensive(burger & coke for 2), but very nice.

[tjmurphy]

[Lansky1]

I heard about that ...

[QTCut5]

I wonder if anyone crushed any ivory handled knives? I didn't see any knives in the pile or going up the belt.

~Q~

[danno50]

I am totally against poaching elephants for their ivory, BUT I don't know how they thought that crushing all those works of art was going to save a single elephant? Made me sick to watch it.
Dan

[royal0014]

How in the #^%#@ did that save even one single elephant ????

[QTCut5]

The idea/theory behind the "Ivory Crush" was an attempt to stop further illegal elephant poaching by showing that there is no longer a market or demand for ivory products. Ostensibly, the takeaway message is that consumers no longer want it and will no longer buy it. The organizers believe that crushing expensive ivory carvings in a big public demonstration will change people's attitude about ivory, i.e., associate it with elephant poaching that supports terrorist organizations, and thereby make it undesirable. Also, they were trying to bring more awareness of the real cost of supporting the ivory market--the potential extinction of the African elephant species and the continued financial support of terrorism through ivory sales.

Although I am all in favor of stopping illegal elephant poaching, personally, I disagree with the theory and methodology of trying to change public sentiment about the value of ivory simply by crushing works of art and/or making ownership of ivory illegal. But, if nothing else, it's a proactive effort designed to create controversy and continue discussion and debate that may eventually lead to a solution. In that respect, at least, the demonstration appears to have been successful to some degree--after all, even though my love for ivory hasn't changed as a result of the demonstration, we are discussing right here, right now, aren't we! I honestly don't know if it's even possible to change the general desirability of ivory enough to have a significant impact on illegal poaching, much less to eliminate the desire for it completely--love for ivory has been deeply entrenched in the human psyche for centuries; but, there's plenty of evidence to show that public attitudes and sentiments and desirability for any product can be manipulated through advertising/marketing. The fact that Big Tobacco could get consumers to buy and use products that actually killed them is proof of that.

I still buy ivory handled knives, so far that hasn't changed. However, as a result of all the legislation and controversy, each time I buy another ivory knife I can't help but wonder if by so doing I am partly responsible for the brutal slaughter of another elephant and if I am indirectly contributing to terrorist organizations and enabling their continued existence. How long can I continue to justify buying ivory knives with no sense of guilt or feelings of responsibility to a larger issue? The seed of internal conflict has been sown.

~Q~

[Quick Steel]

Q, It is my understanding that any ivory knife you purchase from a legitimate maker or company will be from pre-ban supplies.

A few years back I read an analysis of the illegal ivory trade. I cannot quote verbatim but it came down to this. Illegal ivory into the U.S. is next to nothing. The huge recipient of ivory is China including Hong Kong of course. Crack downs on ivory in China seem half-hearted and completely ineffectual. So too the trade in Rhino horns is virtually all Chinese. Unless the Chinese cultural traditions are radically changed there is little hope for more than a remnant of Africa's great animal life.

[QTCut5]

Q, It is my understanding that any ivory knife you purchase from a legitimate maker or company will be from pre-ban supplies.

I hope you're right, QSteel. The date stamped on this elephant ivory Remington Barlow is 2008...but the ivory must have been harvested prior to 1976 for it to officially qualify as "pre-ban", so that would mean it was in storage for 32 years before it was put on this knife. Seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible. At any rate, it's sale (by SMKW) and my purchase were both technically illegal according to current regulations.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Quote: "that would mean it was in storage for 32 years before it was put on this knife. Seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible."
Ivory was sold as intact tusks or sections of tusk and it can be stored without change for centuries. I think it is probable that some people still have blocks of pre ban ivory. I know of one knife maker who has ivory which he purchased decades ago and which he sells to other knife makers on occasion.
KSF has some Lon Humphrey knives with "Tuskite" handles. This is the only synthetic i have seen that actually does look like ivory. Some people who want an ivory handled knife might settle for Tuskite.
kj

[QTCut5]

No doubt there is still plenty of 'legitimate' pre-ban ivory still in storage and waiting to be used. Of course, one of the main problems with the ivory ban in general is that is makes some ivory legal and some ivory illegal with absolutely no way to determine which is which without some kind of next-to-impossible-to-obtain documentation. Even knife manufacturers and legitimate companies that make and sell ivory knives have no way of knowing whether the ivory they use and sell is really pre-ban unless they actually purchased it themselves before Feb. 24, 1976, properly labeled it and maintained scrupulous records and supply control measures--and even then there's no way for them to know if the ivory was legally harvested or the product of illegal elephant poaching (poached ivory is still technically illegal even if it was harvested prior to 1976). Consequently, in order to avoid potential legal issues, nearly every single company that sells ivory always claims that the ivory used in their products is pre-ban--of course they do, why would they say anything else? Unfortunately, just saying it's pre-ban doesn't automatically make it so. And after 32 years, it seems likely that there will be significantly more 'post-ban' (illegal) ivory on the market than the finite, ever-dwindling supply of pre-ban ivory, especially since terrorist organizations discovered the value of ivory to finance their operations and have flooded the market with tons of ivory that eventually makes its way into the warehouses of otherwise unsuspecting companies where it gets mixed in with the legally obtained, pre-ban stockpiles.

~Q~