IZZIT Ivory orIZZINTIT?

[knife7knut]

The recent post of the gorgeous C.Platts & Sons ivory handled knife prompted me to take out my ivory handled knives and re-shoot some pictures with the idea of trying to show some of the characteristics of this wonderful material.
The following pictures show some of the wildly varying colors and grains of the material. Some of my knives I had to double check to make sure that they were indeed ivory and not smooth bone.A couple of the pictures here I still have some question as to whether they are or not but I'm fairly confident that they are.If anyone feels differently please post your comments to that effect.
One of the truly beautiful things about ivory is it's gradual change in color from white(usually an off white)to a golden yellow and even a reddish brown in a couple of them.Although shrinkage is not really much of a factor in ivory it is present in older knives and usually manifests itself by forming small cracks;usually emanating from where pins are holding the scales to the knife.Rarely it will start to de-laminate but that usually only occurs if the material is exposed to extremely hot and dry conditions for long periods of time.I have one knife that is nearly 400 years old and the carved ivory handle on that is worn smooth and on the ends it looks like it is starting to crystallize.But that is a fixed blade which I won't get into here.
Several of the knives shown here are made of one piece of ivory cut out to allow fixing the blade and back spring into place.There is one small knife by Graef& Schmidt that is constructed like that and is one of the ones I question as to whether it is ivory or not.The color is pure white and I cannot make out a grain to it.The blades are in mint condition with a high polish on them even though the knife is nearly a hundred years old.
I had mentioned on the other post about high end knives having a mark side scale that is cut to look almost like bookmatched wood.Two of them are pictured here: a NYKCo whittler and an I*XL tuxedo whittler.Both of them have pile side scales devoid of the bookmatch pattern.
Anyway here they are. I will post pictures of both sides of each knife and a closeup of the NYKCo and I*XL ones.It will likely take several posts so please be patient.
First up is an I*XL quill knife.Nice smooth scales with no perceived layering.
Second is a Brookes & Crookes smoker's knife with a sliding and folding pipe tobacco tamper.Scales aren't color matched but nice.
Third is a Simmons Hardware quill knife with the bee stamp on the back.
Fourth is an H.B.& Sons Prolific tuxedo. This knife is VERY old and the ivory has darkened considerably.
Last is another Simmons Hardware knife;this one a tiny tuxedo whittler.

[knife7knut]

Page 2
First up is a 4 blade jack with no stampings.I'm not if this was a second or a lunchbox knife.Seems to be well made except for the visible pivot pins.
Second is an Electric Cutlery barehead jack.Great snap.
Third is an Ulster whittler.The green staining on the scales isn't from being against brass but i'm not sure exactly what it is.
Fourth is a Joseph Rodgers sleeveboard pen I have another one of these that has a scrimshaw of an Eskimo and sled on it but it appears to be made of bone.
Last is a Dunlap lobster with button hook. At first I thought this was celluloid because the grain is so straight but it is ivory.

[knife7knut]

Page 3
First picture is an unmarked button hook.
Second is the aforementioned Graef&Schmidt two blade. Looking at the pictures now I can detect the grain in the ivory.
Third is a two blade marked(I think)Silver Steel.The stamp is pretty much rubbed off.I think it is English because of the square kick on the master blade.
Fourth and fifth are two different sized grafting knives by Saynor.One is stamped Henderson Brothers.

[knife7knut]

Page 4
First up is a French knife marked Guerre fils(War Brothers).
Second is the aforementioned New York Knife Co whittler. Note the grain on the mark side.
Third is the Wostenholm whittler.Again note the pattern on the mark side.
Fourth and last is an ink eraser letter opener combination.

[knife7knut]

Decided to include this jambiya to show the aging of the ivory.

[jerryd6818]

Ray, does Ivory often crack latitudinally like the:
"Fourth is an H.B.& Sons Prolific tuxedo. This knife is VERY old and the ivory has darkened considerably.
and the
Last is another Simmons Hardware knife;this one a tiny tuxedo whittler."

Just curious. I have very little to no experience with Ivory.

[peanut740]

Ray thanks for taking the time to show these knives.There are alot of interesting patterns shown.I really like the NYKC whittler with it's short long pull.

[knife7knut]

Ray, does Ivory often crack latitudinally like the:
"Fourth is an H.B.& Sons Prolific tuxedo. This knife is VERY old and the ivory has darkened considerably.
and the
Last is another Simmons Hardware knife;this one a tiny tuxedo whittler."

Just curious. I have very little to no experience with Ivory.

Jerry: I'm not sure why this particular knife cracked the way it did but I suspect it was likely the result of being dropped at some point. The tuxedo was definitely dropped as the end is broken off.
Most of the cracking in ivory that I have observed(discounting drops)is usually cracks radiating from one or more of the pins.It could be caused by making the pin heads too tight and stressing the material as shrinkage or drying out took place.
The dark streaking in the knives pictured have been a bit of a puzzle to me.It may have occurred due a foreign substance being introduced during the growth process or it could be staining after the fact. I would lean toward the former as most of the staining looks to be deep within the ivory and ivory is much more dense than bone which is stained(dyed)rather easily.

[knife7knut]

Ray thanks for taking the time to show these knives.There are alot of interesting patterns shown.I really like the NYKC whittler with it's short long pull.

Thank you sir;that one is probably my favorite knife and one I would love to carry regularly but am afraid of dropping it.All blades are scary sharp.

[jerryd6818]

Thanks Ray.

[kootenay joe]

"Last is a Dunlap lobster with button hook"
"Dunlap" as in Camillus made for Sears ?
If so ivory would be most unusual as the "Dunlap" knives were mid range, not top of the line.
Maybe a different Dunlap ?
kj

[mrwatch]

a long time ago I wrote an article about testing Ivory for a scientific instrument collectors website. I will try to find it. ivory is still a living organism. It is recommended to keep a small cup of water behind objects to help keep them from cracking. With the latest ivory ban laws, do not try too take this out of the country or bring anything into the USA. Also some states have laws prohibiting bringing Ivory across state lines. Some antique show dealers can loose their stuff. It is up to you too prove that it is over 100 or more years old so even orchestra players are now usually leaving their antique instruments behind and playing newer ones. It boils down to a hot needle test and smells and the visible grains.

Be aware that much ivory is glued up saw dust but it is still the real deal and subject to the discretion of which ever inspectors are working that day.

[kootenay joe]

Mr Watch, i believe it is better to live with uncertainty than plunge a hot needle into a knife handle.
I'm sure nearly all experienced collectors will agree so i'm posting in case a novice reading this thinks he should try heating up a needle.
kj

[terryl308]

If anyone involved in this post would like a sample piece of ivory to plunge the hot needle in or to sand , smell or observe the lines or lack there of. send me your address and I'll be glad to send you a small piece to do what ever with. Examine at your on pace! then when your done you can buff it and carry it in your pocket for good luck, or drill a hole in it and use as a watch fob.. [email protected] Terry

[knife7knut]

A couple more pieces. When I first bought these I thought they were plastic but upon examining them under a 10x loupe the graining became very obvious. For more pics of these see the thread on a Masonic pen knife.

[terryl308]

Knife7Knut, Very nice old Masonic knife with ivory handle. It has the "tell tail" cracks associated with old ivory and nice color of old ivory. Got any idea how old it is? Love it. Terry

[knife7knut]

Knife7Knut, Very nice old Masonic knife with ivory handle. It has the "tell tail" cracks associated with old ivory and nice color of old ivory. Got any idea how old it is? Love it. Terry

I wish I did Terry. I actually bought them many years apart and was surprised how similar they were. There are no markings as to who made them.Although the pommel end is of the same subject there is quite a size difference.The crossguard seems to be identical(plated brass)the sheaths are different lengths and have vastly different engraving.The etching almost looks to be Spanish in origin.

[mrwatch]

The hot needle test is legit but only done in an inconspicuous place that wont normally be seen. As was demonstrated on the Antiques Road Show. It can make a world of difference on authenticity, value or is it a fake? Trying to prove to the Fed's that it is over 150 years old with documentation may get a bit dicey. Or they can confiscate it and destroy it. This is becoming world wide!

[kootenay joe]

I don't take the Antiques Road Show to be an authority on knives or ivory. It is a TV show that exaggerates to improve ratings. No respected antique dealers do destructive testing.
I had not heard of ivory needing to be over 150 yrs old to be legal. I thought it had to be from before 1979 ? or at least some recent date of an earlier ivory agreement. Can you explain more about the significance of 150 yrs as it relates to ivory.
kj

[mrwatch]

The newest international ban on owning ivory has thrown a monkey wrench into the boiling pot. I think that it was in New York City recently that they confiscated all the ivory from sellers and cheerfully destroyed it all in a giant pile on a street. Their was a picture of it before they drove over it. These people are not fooling around. It is up to you too prove the age and origin of any pieces that you own.

[mrwatch]

you do not do destructive testing, just try to stick a needle held with pliers heated red hot into a place that it will not show. If it is ivory it will not sink in. rubbing a spot to warm it up should smell like the Oder of burning a few strands of human hair. destructive testing does relate to carbon dating of an object.

[kootenay joe]

mrwatch, where exactly would this be: "into a place that it will not show" ?
There is nowhere where it will not show. The handle edges alongside the liners, either well side or spring side, would be less conspicuous than on the front of the handle, but would still be readily visible.
kj

[bestgear]

I've been studying/researching the issue for the past 5 years because I am passionate about the senseless destruction of animals along with the preservation of the past. Many people rely on the hot needle test for ivory. When touched with a hot needle, genuine ivory chars and turns black; a hot needle will cause artificial material to melt or burn. In my humble opinion this test is bad for two reasons: first, it's destructive to the piece tested, second, it doesn't tell you the type of ivory you're looking at. Knowing the kind of ivory you're dealing with is now extremely important due to the laws banning the sales of whale ivories.

In their book Identification Guide for Ivory and Ivory Substitutes (https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory.php), the National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory recommends a three step approach to the identification of ivory and ivory imitations. 1) examination with long wave black light; 2) examination of physical features/shapes; 3) look for Schreger angles (crosshatch grain characteristic of elephant ivory). A step-by-step chart will guide you through an easy yes or no process of elimination.

Using a black light (https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-TT-FL ... lack+light) is an important first step because it saves time by ruling out artificial materials. Virtually all plastics and resins fluoresce blue or blue/white under long wave black light regardless of the surface color in ordinary light. Genuine ivory usually fluoresces white but this can vary depending on whether the ivory has a patina. Most natural old patinas fluoresce dull yellow or brown. Be very suspicious of any brightly colored fluorescence such as yellow as this indicates artificial aging in dung, urine or animal fats. Use black light as your first test, not your only test. Black light is useful for eliminating artificial materials but can not alone prove a piece is ivory. Bone, vegetable ivory (cellulose) and glued together ivory dust, for example, all react like genuine ivory under black light.

[kootenay joe]

Tom, thanks for your very informative post !
I just ordered the black light flashlight you linked to. $9 delivered to help screen out artificial ivory is an excellent deal. Thank you for selecting this light for me.
kj

[bestgear]

Merry Christmas Roland - I love old ivory covered knives although I don't have many, but those that I do are 100% genuine. The U.S. Fish and Game Guide is a very good read and I highly recommend.