Vintage Definition

[XX Case XX]

I use the word "Vintage" a lot when it comes to knives. I know what it means to me but I'm curious as to what it means to others as well. One of the definitions I saw for vintage was, in part, "Something that is not new, but attractive because of it's good condition...

But is there a "time limit"? What I mean is, to be considered vintage, how old does something have to be? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

As far as knives go, what do you consider to be a "Vintage Knife" or is there even such a thing? What say you?

____________
Mike

[peanut740]

This has been kicked around before.I consider vintage knives to be pre 1970,and antique pre WWIl.

[tongueriver]

This has been kicked around before.I consider vintage knives to be pre 1970,and antique pre WWIl.

I kinda see it that way, also. I call "vintage" everything before Delrin, which is 1960/61. I never thought about a label for it, but pre WWII is a significant category for me. "Antique" works, I guess. Actually, vintage originally and correctly really only refers to wine crop years. I always thought it was inappropriately used for collectibles, but I am not losing any sleep over it.

[orvet]

Here is one old discussion of the topic: http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... ge#p353865

[gsmith7158]

I think the word is relative to your age as I have seen a lot of 80's and 90's knives referred to as vintage on eBay.
My personal opinion would be pre 1970.

[olderdogs1]

This has been kicked around before.I consider vintage knives to be pre 1970,and antique pre WWIl.

That's what I consider vintage as well.

Tom

[Dinadan]

There are several threads on this forum that have Vintage in the title. Personally, I think that it would be much better to title a thread something like 1980 and older Muskrats instead of Vintage Muskrats. Since vintage is a fuzzy word I never post a knife in a thread with vintage in the title because I do not know where the cutoff date is supposed to be. Admittedly, I do not have any hundred year old knives: if I did I would assume that they were indeed vintage.

[orvet]

Okay, humor me a little bit…
I have been a member of AAPK for over 10 years there have probably been at least six or eight discussions of what the word “vintage” means in relationship to cutlery.

So one more time I will



Words are tools for communication to exchange information and ideas. If we desire to do that accurately we need to use words that have been agreed upon definition. We can either use existing words that already have a meaning that we all agree upon or we can invent new words.
What we have here with “antique” and “vintage” is a third option which is borrowing words and using them in the context for which they were never intended. This has left us all confused as to the meaning of these words.

The word vintage is or was primarily related to the winemaking industry.
From Wikipedia, the definition of vintage is: “A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year.”

The link below takes you to a chart of 2016 vintage wines:
http://www.winemag.com/wp-content/uploa ... t_2016.pdf

The term is essentially a winemaking term. The history of the word goes back more than 500 years. Also from Wikipedia: “The word vintage was first used in the early 15th century. It was taken from the Old French vendage, meaning wine harvest. This word was taken from the Latin vinum (wine) and demere (to remove).

Obviously the word vintage is not a good fit in the world of cutlery, unless someone can show me a knife made from grapes that were grown or harvested in a single specified year.

The Wikipedia definition of antique:
“An antique (Latin: antiquus; "old", "ancient") is a collectable item, at least 100 years old. It is collected or desirable because of its age, beauty, rarity, condition, utility, personal emotional connection, and/or other unique features. It is an object that represents a previous era or time period in human society.
It is common practice to define "antique" as applying to objects at least 100 years old.”

Wikipedia does make an exception for the term antique when applied to automobiles-
“In the United States, an antique car is generally defined as a car over 25 years of age, this being the definition used by the Antique Automobile Club of America.”



The words we use to describe things around us often derive their meaning from the context in which we use them. We all know the eBay seller who lists a knife as “vintage knife” is trying to convey the idea that this particular piece of cutlery has a certain amount of age to it.

If the knife being described is a pre-World War II Remington we we generally understand and accept the usage of the term “vintage knife” in that context.
When another seller, (or perhaps the same one), lists a brand new Chinese made Old Timer as a “vintage knife” there is something that rises up inside of us and want to call “BS” on that application of the term “vintage knife.”


Returning to my original premise that words are tools for communication to exchange ideas and information, I would repeat that we have a need for terms upon which we all agree when applying said terms to the age of various knives.

Antique is a perfectly acceptable term if we all agree upon what it means; an item that is 100 years or more in age. That will be fine here on AAPK if all of us agreed to use that term properly. The conflict arises when we go to eBay or anywhere else where the people have not agreed with us and our definition of the term. They may refer to a Camillus with a no line tang stamp as an “antique knife.” Obviously a knife made in the 1940s is not quite an antique yet.

If we choose to use the term “vintage” and apply it to cutlery; well this topic to which we are posting and the previous topic which I linked earlier are proof of our confusion! The application of a winemaking term to cutlery collecting has given rise to a great deal of confusion and several discussions of the term “vintage.”

I don’t think this is an issue we will ever solve simply because it involves not only all of AAPK but all knife collectors, knife sellers and practically everyone else in the world.

I think we will continue to use imprecise and inaccurate terms because they are familiar and while inaccurate they do communicate a certain sense of age when applied to a pocket knife.
We can be informed when we purchased knives that the term “vintage” does not have a certain age attached to it like the word “antique” does. Even though the word “antique” does infer a certain age, we should be mindful that most people will not use the term properly.

What has this discussion accomplished? Absolutely nothing, the same thing the previous six or eight similar discussions before it.

Perhaps when Bernard Levine or someone of equal or greater cutlery knowledge writes a “Dictionary of Cutlery Terms” then we will have a definition of cutlery terms that we can all agree upon. Which still does not solve the problem of sellers on eBay who cannot or will not take time to properly research the knife they’re selling or because they just don’t care.

So if you are buying a knife somewhere and the seller says the knife is “vintage” or “antique” you should take a little advice in Latin: caveat emptor!


A couple other pieces of advice regarding the purchase of old cutlery:
1 – “Read the knife.” – Bernard Levine
2 – “Buy the knife, not the story.” – anon

[jerryd6818]

2 – “Buy the knife, not the story.” – anon

Or as an old friend (old in age) of mine says, "Buy the steak, not the sizzle".

The use of the word "vintage" and the misuse of the word "antique" annoys me no end. That said, I've learned to live with it because that's the way of the world.

[Old Hunter]

Really depends on if I am buying or selling a knife! Nowadays I use the term "vintage" to label items from my youth and earlier - guess it would be on a sliding scale depending on when you were born - the 1980's seem like yesterday to me, to someone born in 1990 they would be vintage times.

Dale, as usual that is a scholarly treatise from which I have learned something - thank you! OH

[btrwtr]

While the word vintage is less than precise when it comes to describing cutlery it is the word I chose for my knife store here on AAPK. I do not sell predominantly "antique" knives and agree that this word is too often taken far out of context. I do not like the word "collectible" to describe what I buy, sell and trade because that word has been applied to knives as they roll off the production line brand spanking new. Collectible is far too ranging and though I don't disagree with the way it is used it does take in a wide range of newer cutlery I do not normally buy or sell.

eBay has an entire category named "collectibles and art".

eBay categorizes folding knives like this

Collectible Folding Knives
Collectible Vintage Folding Knives (Pre-1970)
Collectible Modern Folding Knives
Factory Manufactured Folding Knives Mixed Lots Pre-1970

In my mind the word vintage related to cutlery as an adjective means representing the high quality of a past time as in vintage cars, vintage pocket watches, vintage tools and the like. I think this is a use that most of us are familiar with. I understand that many don't like the use pertaining to cutlery but for me it is a shoe that fits. When using the word vintage as applied to cutlery I do agree with the above definitions to broadly define pre 1970 and pre delrin era knives that are not necessarily true 100 year old antiques.

I don't believe that some noted authority defining vintage as it pertains to cutlery would take the mud out of the water. Cattle knife, whittler, stockman and other terms have all been well defined by the same they are still struggled with. I don't and can't use perfect English and don't know anyone that does. I struggle with it.

[gsmith7158]

Once all is said and done Vintage is just an adjective, and we in this hobby know there can be a large difference in a sellers description of a knife and the buyers perception of the knife. With that said any words that come before the noun are pretty much inconsequential. As many have said before read the knife.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Merriam-Webster states: (emphases added)

Full Definition of vintage
1a : a season's yield of grapes or wine from a vineyard

2 : wine; especially : an unusually superior wine all or most of which comes from a single year

b : a collection of contemporaneous and similar persons or things : crop

2 : the act or time of harvesting grapes or making wine

3a : a period of origin or manufacture <a piano of 1845 vintage>

b : length of existence : age

I have read that for an item to be "vintage", it should evoke or be consistent with the time and practices within which it was created.

If we follow Webster's definition, maybe we should ascribe a date to a "vintage" knife, as in "vintage 1940's".

If we follow the idea of evocation of it's times, even a modern tactical knife made last month would be considered "vintage" as it does, indeed, evoke and is consistent with our current "time", 2016.

BTW; we will never come to a consensus agreement on this.

Charlie Noyes

[gsmith7158]

BTW; we will never come to a consensus agreement on this.  

Charlie, that seems to be true of quite a few subjects in the knife world. I've had to just bail out of a couple of discussions because my head was spinning from frustration.

[SteelMyHeart85420]

Was going to post something similar to Charlie....Merriam-Webster has been around a lot longer than Wikipedia, and there are other meanings to the word than what they (Wikipedia) have said. Unlikely there will BE an exact definition, but, it includes wines, and does not exclude everything else.

[terryl308]

I don't use the word "vintage or antique". Knives are not from a vineyard so I prefer to try and put a approximate date of manufacturing on them. or at least a range of years it was made. Let the buyer call it what they want. Some knives are like me and just "old".LOL There just isn't any meaning to the word in the knife world. Terry

[ken98k]

IMHO it is definitely relative to the age of the person using the word. What it "vintage" to my son may still be modern to me.

[tongueriver]

I thought every post had some merit; an interesting discussion. Enough meat here for all of us to chew on (not including tomorrow's sumptuous repast; Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!). For myself there are 3 words I just don't use: vintage, antique, and, uh... bowie.

[Lansky1]

Agree it's pretty subjective, but I've always considered pre-1980 as vintage in my eBay auctions.

[jerryd6818]

I think Charlie pretty much nailed it. I'm still not crazy about it's wide spread use but it's what we have so.................

[Edgewise]

Actually, I find the term helpful when judging a knife. From my time spent on AAPK I have a pretty good idea what is meant, at least here, if not always on eBay. It has a vague ring to it of "old", "classical", "discontinued", "authentic", "collectible", to varying degrees.
Then I do more detailed research. When in doubt I always refer to AAPK for verification and I have never been disappointed.
It's also a term similarly used for fountain pens.

[orvet]

In my mind the word vintage related to cutlery as an adjective means representing the high quality of a past time as in vintage cars, vintage pocket watches, vintage tools and the like. I think this is a use that most of us are familiar with. I understand that many don't like the use pertaining to cutlery but for me it is a shoe that fits. When using the word vintage as applied to cutlery I do agree with the above definitions to broadly define pre 1970 and pre delrin era knives that are not necessarily true 100 year old antiques.

I don't believe that some noted authority defining vintage as it pertains to cutlery would take the mud out of the water. Cattle knife, whittler, stockman and other terms have all been well defined by the same they are still struggled with. I don't and can't use perfect English and don't know anyone that does. I struggle with it.

Merriam-Webster states: (emphases added)
Definition of vintage
3a : a period of origin or manufacture <a piano of 1845 vintage>

I have read that for an item to be "vintage", it should evoke or be consistent with the time and practices within which it was created.

If we follow Webster's definition, maybe we should ascribe a date to a "vintage" knife, as in "vintage 1940's".

BTW; we will never come to a consensus agreement on this.

This is been an interesting and informative discussion on the words “vintage” and “antique,” two words we commonly see associated with older pocketknives especially when purchasing them on eBay. Both Wayne’s and Charlie’s usage of the word incorporated the idea of age or and era of time when referring to the vintage of a knife. The example Charlie quotes “vintage 1940s,” is a great use of the word “vintage” IMHO.

Wayne’s example of considering cutlery made prior to 1970 as being “vintage” is also an excellent use of the word. I would consider either usage of the word to be proper when used in reference to cutlery.

I have no problem with the way the word “vintage” is used in the two examples cited above, especially when it is this associated with a timeframe such as the 1940s, or 1970s.
Thanks to all of your input, I feel I have a better understanding of how the word “vintage” is or should be used, in reference to cutlery.

[josephashaw]

I collect Camillus knives made prior to their bankruptcy in 2007....which are often referred to by sellers as vintage. Interesting discussion...lots of good ideas on what vintage shoul mean when refering to knives.

[gino]

I think 50 years is vintage over 80 is antique

Just my opinion

[Unk]

I've never cared a whit what anyone calls'em. I like old knives. And new one as well. And in-between ones, too, for that matter.