FORGED USA....When did Forging stop?

[cattaraugus57]

Bought this small stockman stamped "forged USA".from what I read it was prob made by Ulster
for Sears before 1940...
The Forged part made me think....how long (what years) did Cutlery makers produce Pocket Knife Blades
using a Forge? versus when they punched them out of a roll of steel?

[deo-pa]

This is what Wikipedia has to say (see "Bladesmith"):

"Bladesmithing began declining after the Industrial Revolution. With improvements in steel production, bladesmiths no longer had to forge steel and knives could be machined from flat bars of steel. As cutlery companies moved to mass production of blades and machine tools became more available, the art of forging steel began to disappear as knifemakers could grind blades out of existing stock. By the mid 20th century, bladesmithing had been relegated to a cottage industry carried out by a handful of bladesmiths."

Some modern commercial knives are still drop-forged. See this discussion of the pros and cons: http://blog.metrokitchen.com/forged-stamped-knives/

Dennis

[knifeaholic]

Bought this small stockman stamped "forged USA".from what I read it was prob made by Ulster
for Sears before 1940...
The Forged part made me think....how long (what years) did Cutlery makers produce Pocket Knife Blades
using a Forge? versus when they punched them out of a roll of steel?

As far as forging relates to the pocket knife factories in the US, this is a topic that I have studied myself for many years trying to get to the answer. I think the break point was about 1930 for most factories but I'll post more later when I have time.

[tongueriver]

A great many kitchen and butcher knives were sold throughout the 20th century marked "forged," and/or having marks on the blade to indicate such, but being nothing of the kind. Imperial made some pocket knives for Jim Parker in the 1970s with these marks, but of course they were not forged. The venerable CASE company sold a lot of these butcher knives with the 'forged' marks. Many Ontario knives have these rolled-in marks. I guess if you stamp or roll them into the hot blanks you could call them forged, but that is pushing the envelope beyond acceptable, in my view. Many German pocket knives, notably Carl Schlieper had an etch that said "Hammered Forged." I think it was pure bull. But I could be wrong.

[Dinadan]

I would be curious to see the set up of a factory that produced forged blades, as opposed to a custom craftsman or blacksmith's setup.

Here is another point to consider. If the steel bar stock that a blade is made of is forged, is the blade forged? I have worked around a couple of steel plants and when the trucks bring those fresh rolled plates out of the process area you can feel the heat radiating off the steel. If you took one of those plates and drop forged blades out of it, would the blades really be any more forged than if you punched and ground blades out of it?

[cattaraugus57]

Very interesting subject to be sure...would love to know more.

I believe I have a Imperial Barlow with the marks...neat looking Blade actually.

The production numbers must have dramatically increased when they went to Punching out the Blanks.

Thanks Fellas!

[steve99f]

I would be curious to see the set up of a factory that produced forged blades, as opposed to a custom craftsman or blacksmith's setup.

Here is another point to consider. If the steel bar stock that a blade is made of is forged, is the blade forged? I have worked around a couple of steel plants and when the trucks bring those fresh rolled plates out of the process area you can feel the heat radiating off the steel. If you took one of those plates and drop forged blades out of it, would the blades really be any more forged than if you punched and ground blades out of it?

Mel, I don't know how cutlers forged their blades but it it seems to me that for a cutler to say his knives were forged, to me that would mean that the blades got their final shape or nearly so through heating to forging temperature and then formed with a forge hammer. Cosmetic grinding, sharpening, polish would follow. Opinion only. I've seen valve bodies and other parts forged from bar stock that way in Louisville, Ky.

[Dinadan]

Mel, I don't know how cutlers forged their blades but it it seems to me that for a cutler to say his knives were forged, to me that would mean that the blades got their final shape or nearly so through heating to forging temperature and then formed with a forge hammer. Cosmetic grinding, sharpening, polish would follow. Opinion only. I've seen valve bodies and other parts forged from bar stock that way in Louisville, Ky.

Steve - I understand what you are saying, I guess I was just making a contrarian point. I agree that your definition is what I should expect if a knife is advertised as forged.

[steve99f]

Mel:

Re read your post and I think we agree. Using a punch press to knock out blades from sheet steel isn't forging. I've seen forging defined as the application of heat and pressure.

The heat and pressure applied to hot roll sheet, plate or bar is part of the steel making process as opposed to forging as I understand it. Take one of these steel product forms and apply heat and pressure to make something else would be forging IMO.

I am not a metallurgist, I don't have a degree in anything so I could be entirely wrong.

[EyeBJoe]

Briefly responding to tongueriver's thought regarding the Carl Schlieper Company and their use of "Hammer Forged" on many of their blades, I actually witnessed the drop forging process in 1983 in an old shop who contracted work to Carl Schlieper. The process consisted of two small furnaces and a simple drop hammer, but the blades were definitely being hammer forged. Not sure if all their cutlery was forged but many of their folding patterns had been manufactured that way for decades. I'm not sure anyone knows how long the process continued or whether Olbertz continued it after their purchase of the Carl Schlieper company.

Sorry if this is a tangent from the original topic in this thread but just thought I would add some first hand history.

Joe D.

[Rough Ryder]

I recently bought a sleeve board whittler with the marking “forged USA”. It does remind me of an Ulster made knife so I find it easy to believe it was as stated above. It’s a very well made knife with an interesting repair to the back scale. It’s jigged bone and the front scale is beautiful aged bone. The back had me confused as it looked like the bone wore away and it was plastic under. I looked closer and determined that the back scale must have been broken and filled in with something like Bondo. Someone really loved this knife in order to make the repair so they could keep using it. It totally kills its collector value but these are the kind of things I find even more interesting than pristine knives.

These old pocket knives were not cheap in their day. Most guys only had one or two knives and they didn’t look at them as disposable. Repairs were sometimes made and blades would be used and sharpened repeatedly. One of these old pocket knives probably saw more actual use than 100 modern knives from most people’s collections. They harken back to a day where people would spend good money on quality and use the hell out of it but still take care of it like the fine tool it was. A pocket knife is such a personal item. It’s fascinating to me that we can buy these pieces of history “often for little money” that tell tales of a culture that doesn’t exist anymore. They are overlooked archaeological artifacts in a real sense.

I’m sure the definition of “forged” varies but what most people think of when it comes to a forged blade is that it was forged into shape and then finished. All knife steel is technically forged but the blades are not. Calling something forged when it’s really just stock removal, is shady.

[knifeaholic]

I think it was about 1930 for pocket knife factories in the USA...but continued in Sheffield and in Solingen.