When is a knife considered rare?

[Forensic Jim]

A short time ago I had a knife listed on fleabay. I can't recall the exact knife but it was 1/100 made. I had it listed as "rare". A fellow eBayer sent me a message that I was improperly using the term "rare". His explanation was that it should have been listed as "scarce", but certainly not "rare". I replied that with 100 knives made, that would average out to just two per state and I considered it "rare", IMO. I took offense to this at first and thought he was off base. Lately, I've noticed "rare", is used so frequently that maybe he had a point. With Case Classics knives, just about every listing you see has "rare" included in the listing even though there might have been 2,000 made. Any thoughts on the proper use of "rare" would be appreciated.

[justin hosier]

Here is how this works. If I own it and there are only 100 made, it is a rare priceless gem and a great work of art! If you own it, and there are 100 made, "Shoot I passed up 3 of 'em fer 5 bucks apiece at the Flea market (or yard sale, knife show, outhouse floor, or substitute of your choice) just the other day". If you've only seen one before, if there aren't 15 of them currently listed on Ebay, if there were only 100 made, trust me it's rare. Don't let semantics get in the way of a good decription if you want my advice
BTW how many Ferrari's do they make every year?

If there are only 2 or 5 made, it's not rare either, its a PROTOTYPE

[PA Knives]

I wanted to chime in on this one as it related to my earlier post concerning the word "vintage" Same sitiuation I beleive.

The word "rare" in our world is subjective. One's opinion of rare can completely differ from anothers. What I consider rare, others may consider JUNK.

Ebay is a huge sales game and key words are what sells things on there. If I say I have an Allentown Co. pocket knife for sale. Unless you are a true knife nut, you aren't impressed. BUT, if I say Rare, vintage Allentown Co. collectors piece. UMMM !!!!! that must be something of interest, I better look.

You have trolled the waters and now have a fish checking out your lure. Your pics and dialog will now attempt to set the EBAY hook.

This practice is used Time and time again. I am guilty of it myself. Ebay is all about key words, everything else is just to set the hook.

Forget Ebay for a minute and think about our hobby. I can call just about any decent knife RARE and give valid reasons. Again, it is up to the buyer to determine in their mind the rarity. remember, "it ain't worth nothing, unless someone wants to buy it"

[Ringmaster]

Good post, PA Knives -

The world may not agree with me, (very seldom does), but my opinion of rare goes like this :

250 years ago, a log cabin with iron nails in it was considered rare, because of scarcity. But, that didn't make iron nails valuable - the pioneers just used wooden pegs. Today, an iron nail from that period is considered rare AND valuable.

In my heyday, as a knifemaker, I produced barely 100 knives marked "Hunter Brand" over "Arkansas". 20 + years later, they are rare, but still not valuable, or collectible.

Last year's limited run edition of 100 knives doesn't mean a whole lot to me, UNLESS it's a quality product, in the first place. Heck, I've got some "rare" Taylor-brand pocketknives, that I couldn't sell for $10 apiece, with MOP handles.

Hey - did you ever send me your address ?? I think my PM is about like CCBill's - I don't get many ? Email me, [email protected]

That's my penny, and a half,
JR

[Sauconian]

Pa.,

Is that Allentown Co. pocket knife for sale ?

Many people, especially antiques dealers, complain about eBay ruining their business and driving down prices. What it has done, is to enlightened people about just how rare, or commom, something may be.

Any given item may look rare if you are only looking for it in a narrow marketplace, but may be much less so if you are looking in a larger market such as eBay.

That Allentown knife may be rare for anyone looking only in Texas, but I've managed to acquire more than a dozen in only 4 or 5 months, not only because I'm in the best geographic region to find them, but also because the wider market of the internet has allowed me to acquire nearly half of the total from distant places.

I think any item which is 1 of 100 worldwide is rare, unless there were many being offered for sale, or no one wanted them.

The availability of an item, and the demand for it, counts as heavily as the total number existing, as determining rarity. JMO

Fran

[woseyjales]

ForJim,
Listing on BayE is similar to working retail or any service industry.
Anyone can sign in, walk in, or call in.
Some can comprehend the English language and Communicate well with others, then you have the other 65%.
Coin descriptions had the same ambiguity and degree of subjectiveness.
Some attempt has been made to standardize terminology and definition of grades , or condition.
The Knife Collecting community has not gotten around to making such standardization widespread knowledge.
Some sellers Apparently study the other listings and adopt all the buzz words for theirs.
That's how we run across listings with a rare scarce vintage mint except for the broken blade yellow handled Case trapper, for example.

Often anyone that takes time to send you such a comment is not the type that can be swayed by rational explanation. instead, I would have been tempted to :
a. Thank them and promise never to use term "rare" again. Or
b. Tell them I didn't mean the hard to find type "rare",
I meant the knife had a warm red center type "rare".

[Paladin]

The question of rarity has caused me to think about the use of the term on several occasions as I sell and buy mainly old knives.
I almost never use the term 'rare' when listing or talking about one of my items. Unless it is truly a rare knife, I refer to it as uncommon, assuming it fits that description. I believe that term is better for me. That is not to say Jim is wrong in using 'rare' to describe his limited edition knife, it just isn't what I normally use in my listings. I have had a few knives to sell that were legitimately rare and when that is the case, I use the term. Another term that might be descriptive is 'scarce' but if an item is really rare, go for it. To not use it is to do a disservice to yourself.

[rigwelder]

for me a rare knife is one that is so old theres not many around! for me its all case tested or older. i call case bros. cut co., case bros. sprinville and gowanda rare. sure theres lots of old rare knives. these are just what i like to collect. you find any form of case bros. gowanda and you have a rare knife! i call these newer 1 of 100 or whatever, limited.

[SFC ADP]

In my opinion, I would think Scarce would be harder to find than rare, but if we really want to have a discussion, lets talk about VERY RARE!!!

[MITCH RAPP]

In my opinion, I would think Scarce would be harder to find than rare, but if we really want to have a discussion, lets talk about VERY RARE!!!

AW! VERY RARE!

[Sauconian]

Webster's New World Edition defines "rare" as :
1/ Not frequently encountered; scarce; unusual
2/ Unusually good; excellent

That definition, especially the second, leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation. Age is not implied, nor is the number existing necessarily a requirement.

Someone didn't agree with your assessment Jim, so what ?

Fran

Three people won't even agree on what a 'rare' steak is.

[El Lobo]

THAT meaty fellow is a BLUE steak for dadgum sure.

Rare is what I tell my wife that I am.....she says I better make myself scarce.

Bye Bye Bill

[knife7knut]

Some interesting observations in this post.As someone who is fascinated by words as well as anything with an edge,I offer the following bits I have heard over the years:

An item that is rare is not necessarily valuable and an item that is valuable is not necessarily rare.

A friend of mine is of the opinion that the words,"priceless" and "worthless" can be used interchangeably.If you agree or disagree,can you prove your point of view? It's not as easy as it looks.

And I agree;the word"rare" should be reserved strictly for steaks and hamburgers(if you can still find a restaurant that will server you one that way).

[Bob W.]

If only 100 were made and your's was the only one for sale, I'd say it meets the definition of "rare."

But if there are others for sale, then I'd avoid saying "rare." Think about the current production knives made in small numbers that are readily available at dealers - Bark River, Canal Street, Great Eastern. Low production alone doesn't equal "rare."

It's a subjective term though, and the rarity of an item could also be placed in context with other similar items. Is your knife "rare" compared to an Imperial Barlow? Almost certainly. But is it rare compared to a mint condition Will and Finck? Probably not.

Regardless, the person who e-mailed you is either a nut, or they have entirely too much time on their hands.

--------------
A bit OT, but I wanted to touch on "antique" or "vintage" or "historic." Among certain groups those are precise terms with legal and professional definitions. But to the average person or typical eBay shopper, those words are as vague as "rare."

[Duffy]

Would hens teeth fall into this conversation any where ?? duffy.

[orvet]

Mitch,
I ordered a rare prime rib at Outback & it was even "rarer" than your steak. The center was cold. That was too "rare" for me.

Dale

[MITCH RAPP]

Dale; If it's still cold in the center, that's Cave Man style and it's not good for anyone to eat.

[Hukk]

Mitch,
I ordered a rare prime rib at Outback & it was even "rarer" than your steak. The center was cold. That was too "rare" for me.
Dale

Guess that makes me part animal, I don't mind eating Raw meat, in fact I prefer that to cooked. I did go to a resturaunt in Reno Nv. where my daughter lives and asked for and ate a raw 20 oz. Porterhouse no sauce salt or pepper, just raw, the way I like it. They won't serve it here in CA but will cook it, do I just order blued, basically on the grill long enough to warm it. Give me the raw beef every time. OK, To much information for some I'm sure.

Now as far as knives go, it's a play on words and relative to that companies output. Now Case has made some knives with 3,000 and calls that limited, well 3,000 made means you have a pretty good shot at getting one, IMO. 100, even 50, I would call limited production, even with GEC they at the company refer to it as limited production.

Now I have to ask myself, what's the difference between scarce and rare? Good question and I'm not sure I have a viable answer. But here goes, 25 knives for Case I'd call scarce GEC or Canal street, Id call it limited. 15 knives for any company, I'd call scarce. Rare for me is a prototype, 10 or 20 is not a true proto number - PLEASE though I'm a fan of Bulldog Brand knives their prototypes for the most part look like production knives with an exotic handle and prototype engraved on the back of the master blade.

For me RARE MUST be a single digit number. Rare or prototype should be less than 7 and HOPEFULLY there will be distinct diference between the prototypes.
RARE can be a one time production of 10,000 knives 50-100 years ago. BUT for some reason or other they are now hard to find, you may look for 25 years to find one and the only one you've seen in your life is in poor shape, I'd call that either scarce or RARE, it's a play on words but accutate. It's all relative and I don't think that there will ever be a definitive answer for us collectors.

OH, I gotta run, I just saw Bob's Angus run by, see if I can cut a big piece of basckstrap off of her.

[Duffy]

Mitch,
I ordered a rare prime rib at Outback & it was even "rarer" than your steak. The center was cold. That was too "rare" for me.
Dale

Guess that makes me part animal, I don't mind eating Raw meat, in fact I prefer that to cooked. I did go to a resturaunt in Reno Nv. where my daughter lives and asked for and ate a raw 20 oz. Porterhouse no sauce salt or pepper, just raw, the way I like it. They won't serve it here in CA but will cook it, do I just order blued, basically on the grill long enough to warm it. Give me the raw beef every time. OK, To much information for some I'm sure.

Hey Huk, 1 question. How do you order your steak, do you just tell them to cut the horns off of it and drive it toward you?

[Hukk]

Hey Huk, 1 question. How do you order your steak, do you just tell them to cut the horns off of it and drive it toward you?

Gnaw If I'm in a resturaunt I ask the waitres to chase one down and carve off a piece of backstrap, it's more tender and easier to cut off a running beast.

Actually I worked 1 day and a half without eating on this large ranch (Gottschalk's) near Clearlake, by the town of Lakeport. I had a couple fillets in the ice chest and I was hungry - ranch work just does that. Well, I was tired and did not feel like waiting for the fire to burn down to coals.

SO, I sliced open the plastic and used that styrofoam tray as a plate. Yep, I scarfed 2 1/2 LBS of raw steak right out of the package, never made it to the plate. DANG when you are that hungry it was just a great and wonderful meal best ever in fact because I was just flat out starved. Butcher paper does make a terrible napkin, must have been quite a site, good thing no one was out there but me, cutting up steak and using my knife for a fork, the blood running down my chin must have scared the hell out of anyone that may have chanced upon me.

Actually Len Gottshalk got the money to buy the ranch by playing football for the Atlanta Falcons for several years. He had a great pension check as well. Some of the best years of my life I think!

[useem]

you are a HARD MAN Hukk would have scared more than a few city slickers

[Hukk]

you are a HARD MAN Hukk would have scared more than a few city slickers

My daughter grew up thinking that was "NORMAL"!!

Wait a minute, why am I laughing? I remember that occassion quite well as ex-wife #1 took my daughter out there to spend time with me when she was 5 or 6 years old a couple days later. My duties were a bit easier and I only had to spend 1 night out in a sleeping bag and my daughter had her sleeping bag as well. She just thought it was a camping trip.

I tell you, MAN, did I ever get the look of death. My daughter came home with me to her mom in Santa Rosa I had planned to make a quick drop off but those plans changed real fast when my daughter proudly announced Mom, Guess what, we ate raw meat. There was a REAL GOOD reason for that time! I could not light a campfire because there was a fairly strong wind coming off the lake, earlier in the day the temperetures had hit around 110 degrees, a fire would have been STUPID. Do you think I had a chance to explain, NOT!

Of course there were some very nice trade-offs. I do recall that most of her boyfriends were really afraid of me. I never heard so much yes sir, no sir and all that in all my life. Amazing coincedence how I was sharpening knives, axes, reloading ammunition, and sharpening broadheads for my bow when they came over to meet me for the first time. Ambir (my daughter and I told her to spell her name with an "e" like most people because the "i" makes her look like an ARAB). Heck, I'm just a softie, she always won our arguments, good thing her boyfriends never knew. Yep, she was never home late in fact she was home early a few times. When it came to my kids, I am pretty soft-hearted, always have been. Dang, always fun going down memory lane.

[Sauconian]

Hukk, you're a man after my own heart !

When my daughter was about 15 or 16, she came home with the young fellow who lived across the street, and introduced him. He politely shook my hand, and said he wanted my permission to date my daughter. I replied that I thought that would be great ! Just as his grin got the broadest, I said " yes, because I know where you live, and I have guns ! "

They've been married about 18 years now, and I couldn't ask for a better 'son'.

He still tells that story on me though, whenever introducing me to someone new.

Fran

[Duffy]

Hukk, I bet you had a hard time getting the daughters boyfriends to agree to come FOR dinner at your house . duffy.

[Hukk]

Hukk, I bet you had a hard time getting the daughters boyfriends to agree to come FOR dinner at your house . duffy.

Actually they would always come for dinner. I always had wild game in the freezer, sometimes just burgers. Seems like it became a ritual for acceptance.

Reminds me of a funny story though when I was about 30. Calfornia's "A" zone for archery runs the second Saturday of July to the last Sunday of July, and it's hotter than Hades sometimes. The year I'm thinking about wasn't a hot year as I had bagged a nice buck with my bow, a Martin Warthog, ( I had it set at 80 LBS instead of 65 because I had been doing a lot of hog hunting).(yeah at 80LBS this compound cam broke one rib, severed the main artery down along the spine, broke 2 vertabrae, broke another rib on the way out and I never found the arrow. I was lying on my side to get the shot, he was lying down trying to get some rest. He got up and only made 1 1/2 steps uphill and fell over backwards).

Well, I lived in a duplex at the time and a young girl (but not to young ) rented the other unit and we shared a garage. About 2 nights after I shot what was known as Old Grandpa (massive Blacktail with a 5x5 rack dressed at 160 lbs) with my bow at 30 yds I heard a blood curdling scream from the garage. Well, she was supposed to be gone and I had the buck hanging from the rafters in a game bag, of course blood was seeping through the bag in 1 spot.
I went out to the garage to see what was happening, she saw me, her eyes got real big and she started sceaming again and ran into her unit of the duplex. About 2 or 3 minutes later I hear someone knocking on the door, before I got there one of them yelled open up Santa Rosa Police. I still hadn't added 2 and 2 yet, but they went out to the garage to see a reported murder victim. They opened the "body Bag" and admired the big buck I'd killed. I butchered him a couple days later. It's pretty funny now, my daughter is trying to get me to write a book about all these country boy living in the city stuff. To me a buck in the bag hanging was as natural as her doing her laundry.

Yeah, it cracks me up still to this day, 20 years later.

This is a very large blacktail, I've seen legal Blacktails dress as low as 59 lbs, a good buck will be 105 to 115 or so. This is a small relative of the Mule deer and they can and do inter-breed in some areas of Ca.

Quite often and once I was even told, "why do you always say dressed weight after you killed the poor thing."

I just tell them like it is, ever try to weigh a live one? They seem to get the point real well.