new Schrade old parts

[miked32]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHRADE-WALDEN-GREE ... dZViewItem
kinda neat i guess they should have throwed some old handles on it to..

[Rupe]

I looked at that listing yesteray. I kinda like the green on it.

[orvet]

It looks pretty, but IMHO, it isn't a real Schrade.
These put together knives will only confuse future Schrade collectors.

Dale

[TM]

I like it - any other place you can get this new USA Schrade stuff besides ebay?

[Duffy]

orvet do you think they're doing these to lead people to believe that the new Schrade is just like the old Schrade? I went to a local hardware store the other day and since I'm starting to collect knives now, I was looking at a big Schrade display case that was there. Upon close inspection of the knives, they were the new Schrade's but the big Schrade display case has made in U.S.A. written all over it. There was one old Schrade made in the U.S.A. knife in the whole display. I kinda looked at that as sort of false advertizing to me. What do you think?

[TM]

It really bums me out when I go into a store like Tractor Supply and they have an old fashioned looking Schrade display cabinet full of nothing but the new Taylor/China crap..... then you go to another store and all they have are clampacks full of Buck and Gerber tacticals that all look the same!

[orvet]

orvet do you think they're doing these to lead people to believe that the new Schrade is just like the old Schrade? I went to a local hardware store the other day and since I'm starting to collect knives now, I was looking at a big Schrade display case that was there. Upon close inspection of the knives, they were the new Schrade's but the big Schrade display case has made in U.S.A. written all over it. There was one old Schrade made in the U.S.A. knife in the whole display. I kinda looked at that as sort of false advertizing to me. What do you think?

Let’s face it, it there wasn’t some value in the Schrade name then Taylor would not have paid for the IP (intellectual property) rights, the right to use the name Schrade & Uncle Henry, Old Timer and other the brand names of Imperial Schrade. Anyone who buys the right to use those old names is banking on the fact that people have some brand loyalty. Otherwise there is no purpose in buying the rights to the names. I am sure they would be quite pleased if customers bought their “new Schrade” knives and never knew the difference. I think they are banking on people not being very observant. I think that is why “China” is lightly etched on the back of the tang in such small letters that it hard to read them without a magnifying glass.

Let’s face it, they are hoping that loyal Schrade customers will say; “Oh look, a new Schrade. It is about time they started making some green bone handles knives like Case. Now I can have Schrade quality and green bone like Case.”
In reality most knife buyers, who are not collectors, do not look at a knife with a magnifying glass. They see an American flag on the box and assume that it is made in the USA, like the old ones were. I think that is why they copied the style of Old Timer boxes.

I think that this sort of marketing is disingenuous, even though it is not an outright lie. Now if they had the US flag on the box with the words “Made in the USA” like the old boxes, then they might be liable for false advertising, but they carefully do not cross that line. I think to put Chinese made knives in an Old Schrade display with the words “Made in the USA” is deceitful. But, then again, how many of the store clerks actually know that Schrade is now made in China? I have talked to many of them that were not aware of the change.

The average guy on the street, especially the Wal-Mart shopper, probably doesn’t care where it is made, at least until he gets one that falls apart or won’t hold an edge. Then he might care. But he is happy to pay less for what he thinks is the same knife.

I think that sites like AAPK and Collectors-of-Schrade (http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/) are going to be very important to future collectors in being able to determine whether a knife is a USA Schrade or not.

That is just my 2¢,
Dale

[Hukk]

Taylor bought Schrade so they can make money, period! They don't CARE if it's NOT MADE IN AMERICA. They are looking to maximze profit by using an almost slave labor workfoce from a communist regime called China. China is the MOST POLLUTED country in the world. China aims to become the world's most powerful country and they WILL reach that goal because of the United States policies regarding fair trade are being played out on a lop-sided playing field. Their goal is to be the worlds leader and that should happen in just 20 years, unless something changes.

Anyway when you see 440 on the tang, you automatically KNOW that this is lower grade 440A, not the 440C that is found on quality knives.

OK, enough of my rant, Chinese knives are for now an inferior product. They WILL one day posess the tooling and equipment to rival the best knives that major US manufacturers have made. All because they can sell a knife as cheap as dirt and make money.

[Rusty1]

TM, Smoky mountain knife works have most of the Taylor Schrade knives in stock.

http://www.eknifeworks.com search Schrade

Rusty1

[TM]

Hi Rusty1 - thanks for the info, but I'm intrested in the Schrade Walden USA knives like the one miked32 put a link to at the beginning of the post - not the Taylor knives. Actually, I don't collect Schrades, I was just wondering about the availability of the new USA mades.

[El Lobo]

I think Rusty1 was likely including the knife that was pictured in the first post.....as that trademark (Schrade Walden) is now also owned by Taylor Brands, as part of the Intellectual Property.
Most folks feel Camillus was making some patterns with that mark, for SMKW, until their demise. Some patterns may also be made by Bear and Son in Alabama.

The knife pictured may also have been cobbled by someone, from the many truckloads of parts, as Dale mentioned, especially since the fit of the backsprings looks poorly done..

JMO.

Bill

[miked32]

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SCHRADE-WALDEN- ... dZViewItem
thats a awful pretty little feller right there i dont care who you are
so are these knives sent over here ready to sell or are they assembled in the U.S.A.
it would be something if we could get these to talk see if it was American or chinese
so are the boxes old stock??

[miked32]

and a Walden knife co.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Walden-Knife-Co-USA ... dZViewItem

[glennbad]

I had posted this review "elsewhere", but I think it has some merit here as well...

These may have already been reviewed here, but I'll offer my initial observations...

These are the Taylors that are now being made by Camillus or Bear & Sons. At least they are not imports...

I have always been a sucker for a medium stockman with a turkish clip blade. This was the pattern that got me started as a lad, when I received one that had belonged to grandfather. So, I saw these on ebay, and decided to pick one up. For $36 with shipping, a little steep for my tastes, but I pulled the trigger anyway.

My initial thoughts upon receiving it were that it looked fairly solid, the green bone popping out at you. Nice overall look and feel to the knife. And the original plastic tube packaging, reminds you when they all came like that. (Good marketing, that's how they get the unsuspecting buyers).



There is no pattern number on the knife, only on the paper insert to the tube, which says "SCW 11897G". As we know, this is a clone of the 897 pattern.



It has the scandalous Walden tang stamp:



And the "Everlastingly Sharp" logo on the main blade:



Is it just me, or are the turkish clip blades on these much skinnier than the older ones?

So I started to inspect it, interested in the fit and finish, and how it might stack up to the past. My initial feeling on this knife is, it reminds me of the Rough Rider stockmans. They look good at first, but then you start to see things that pop out at you.

The snap on the clip is pretty good, better than I had remembered on the 897UH, but this one has noticeable blade play. Quit disappointing for a brand new knife. The sheepsfoot had good snap, and slight wobble, but not as bad as the clip.

The spey is ridiculous. There appears to be tension from the backspring, but no snap. There may be something rubbing that is keeping it from snapping up good, and in defense, perhaps a bit of oil and some working in might help. But regardless, the action on this spey is unacceptable from the factory.

The greenbone is nice, and the shield is deeply inset, so much so that when I turn the knife on its' side, I can't see the edges of the the shield at all. Probably 1/32" in from the surface of the bone.

I have always heard that bone can be tricky to work with. Maybe that's why I am seeing what looks to be a crack running from one pin towards the corner of the scale by the bolster. Hopefully you can see this in the pic:



However, this takes the cake for me. Look at the sloppy finish angle on this bolster end:



I realize a hand finished knife will not be perfectly symmetrical, but you should also not be able to see such a disparity.

Sharpness out of the box is okay on the clip and the spey. The clip will slice copy paper fairly easily. The angles on the grinds look fairly even. The sheepsfoot, however, is so dull I can push my thumb up and down it's edge with no effect. I guess that's not horrible these days; I have heard of some higher end production knives with dull edges out of the box.

I have no test data on edge-holding or other use, it is still new.

I decided to just put it away for now.

I hope that the review was helpful...

Glenn

[orvet]

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SCHRADE-WALDEN- ... dZViewItem
thats a awful pretty little feller right there i dont care who you are
so are these knives sent over here ready to sell or are they assembled in the U.S.A.
it would be something if we could get these to talk see if it was American or chinese
so are the boxes old stock??

I don't know where the parts are made or where they are assembled. You might contact Taylor Brands LLC: http://www.taylorbrandsllc.com/index.php?page=home It is possible that they may not even know who made the knife in question. I found it interesting that on their web site that were soliciting for companies to "partner" with them in "licensing partnerships."

In perusing their site I found two pages that had to do with this “partnering.” Here are the links to those pages:
http://www.taylorbrandsllc.com/index.php?page=branding
http://www.taylorbrandsllc.com/index.ph ... tor-s-club

It seems apparent, from my interpretation of their site, that they are seeking companies to buy a license from them to use one of their many Schrade names, (see their Schrade catalog for the many Schrade brand names they have listed, some of which do not seem to be from the original USA Schrade company). Interestingly, I did not see the Schrade Walden name listed.
It appears to me that if you have enough money, you can get a license to produce, or have produced, a line of knives with the Schrade name on them. I suspect that is what has occurred with the knife you have listed in the ebay ad. From the look of the box, it appears to be very similar to the boxes used by Queen or, IIRC, also by Bear & Sons Cutlery. That is not to say that someone else could not have ordered similar size boxes.
In following that line of reasoning I checked both the Queen web site & the Bear & Sons website and looked at their knives for similar patterns.

The knife listed in the ebay auction is a 4-1/8” trapper. Which makes it a pretty large trapper. Schrade made three 4-1/8” trappers; the 296Y, 96OT & 97OT. They all had rounded edges, for a more finished look, typical of Schrade. The knife in the auction has very squared edges; typical of knives I have seen produced by Bear & Sons. The rear bolster on the ebay trapper is very angular and squared off as opposed to the rounded, more finished look of the Schrade. Compare it to the bone handled Schrade trapper I have posted.
Now compare it to the #254 (4-1/8” trapper) made by Bear & Sons:
http://www.bearandsoncutlery.com/index. ... cts_detail
Especially note the similarities between the rear bolster on the Bear trapper & on the ebay knife.

This leads me to believe that the trapper in the ebay auction is made, probably by Bear & Sons under license from Taylor Cutlery LLC. Now the $64K question: “Who got the license from Taylor & who contracted with Bear & Sons to make said knife?” Likely we will never know, but if I had to guess my money would be on the folks at Smoky.

Though we might all wish for full disclosure from companies as to where their products are made & by whom, I doubt we will ever get it. This is not new. Camillus was the Knife Maker’s knife maker. They made more knives for other companies, under that company’s name, than probably any other knife maker in US history. Camillus was very closed mouth about who they made knives for.

This phenomenon is not unique to the cutlery industry. It is called private labeling or in the cutlery industry, SFO (special factory order). Most large (and even some smaller) producers of products, be they manufacturers, produce canners, or cigar makers will, for the commitment of substantial volume & a nice contract, produce your own brand of their product. Wal-Mart has a lot of their own brands on their shelves, from cold medicine to peanut butter & green beans. Yet they do not have a pharmaceutical factory, or a peanut processing plant, or a bean cannery. These are private label products. The same is true of the cutlery industry. Often the true producer of these private label products is a closely guarded secret. Sears had a number of companies make knives for them. Some of the companies that made knives for Sears include, New York Knife, Camillus, Schrade & Kershaw.

Bottom line, I don’t know who made the knife in the ebay auction. My educated guess would be Bear & Sons. That would most likely make it an American made knife. But, I am not going to buy it and put it in with my Schrade collection. Why? Because it is not a Schrade knife. It is not made by Imperial Schrade Corp., nor any of the predecessor companies of ISC.
It may be a fine knife (though I don’t like 440 stainless), but there millions of fine knives in the world. I collect knives made by the Imperial Schrade Corp & associated companies. ISC ceased to exist in 2004. Anything made after that time is not a Schrade knife in my opinion.

Am I an expert?
Absolutely NOT!
I am just a guy who collects ISC knives and couldn’t sleep this morning.
I guess that makes me a hording insomniac.
The fact that I am putting my opinion out for the whole world to see makes me a hording insomniac with an attitude (or at least an opinion).

That is just my 2¢
Dale

[orvet]

Great review Glenn!

It is disappointing to see the lack of QC coming from Camillus, but I think the last couple years for Camillus have not been typical in terms of the quality they have produced in the past.

Dale

[El Lobo]

As info from the Smoky Mountain site.....

http://www.eknifeworks.com/webapp/eComm ... =SCW11897G

A licensed exclusive, made ??? for SMKW...from Taylor Brands LLC.

Again, just as info.

Bill

P.S.
Sorry if that link e l o n g a t e d this thread.

[TM]

.... very informative thread, guys nice review Glenn

[Savage1]

Camillus closed 2/07.

[El Lobo]

Just as information,
Here is the text on the warranty paper for some of those knives being sold by SMKW...

The Schrade cutlery company was founded in 1904 in Walden, NY. The quality of the cutlery produced was unique to the industry at that time. They grew to manufacture a full range of value-priced folding pocket knives. Albert M. Baer, the owner of Ulster Knife Company which was founded in Ellenville, NY, purchased Schrade Cutlery Company in 1946 and renamed it the Schrade Walden Cutlery Corporation. It became a division of the Imperial Knife Associated Companies group. The Schrade Walden division was moved from Walden, NY to Ellenvville NY in 1958. The Ellenville, NY factory closed in 2004. Production of these knives was moved to Camillus, NY.
Used under License from Taylor Cutlery, LLC

...now that Camillus is also gone, at least as we knew it, it will be interesting to see if Bear does more knives than the single backspring pin patterns they've already been doing.

At least it gives us something to talk about...

Bill