ARGH!!!

[smiling-knife]

Hi 9ball. I Hope you have a great and safe weekend. Looking forward to many more of your frank (who's he ) and honest opinions. much appreciated. take care s-k.

[smiling-knife]

Here is my 2p worth.

Wade and Butcher dated back to the early 1800s in Sheffield and was renowed for its high quality razors, bowie knives and pocket knives in the early to mid 1800s. The the various aspects of the massive Wade and Butcher co were sold off following the death of Samuel Butcher in 1869. The cutlery aspect carried on under the name W & S Butcher and kept the Wade and Butcher name and trademark (Letter B on it side in a circle on the left, an arrow in the middle and the Maltese cross on the right). To cut the story short, an American company named Durham-Duplex bought the W & S Butcher Co in 1921, primarily for the manufacture of safety razors. Some of the early stainless hunting knives to appear in the US during the 1920s were marked 'Wade and Butcher', although it is not clear where they were made. W & S Butcher went out of business in Sheffield in 1959.

I don't have the source, and somone please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that imported knives to the US during the time in question were required to display their origin. Thus, if was an imported Sheffield made W & S Butcher knife, it would have sheffield and/or England on one of the tangs. It could be similar to the hunting knives mentioned above which would have been made for the American Co by some mystery maker in the US. The knife in my book and the one on ebay (see 6610590069 for good close-ups of stamps) have a different font with 'Wade &' top line, 'Butcher' second line and 'Sheffield' third line along with trademark. I don't know if that means anyything significant, but it is interesting.

The mystery continues. s-k

p.s. it all looks different to me font, arrow design, cross etc.

[PA Knives]

I don't have the source, and somone please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that imported knives to the US during the time in question were required to display their origin.

You comment is half right. They were required but not all did. If a blade is stamped with its origin you now know that it was from that period forward. That is all it can tell you. I have a Tuna Valley that is a prime example of that. It helps to date when stamped but not always.

JMO>

[SFC ADP]

Well as for the Tidoute Knife I sent Myrtlefaye a question about his knives, and this was his reply:

Several years ago i bought a huge collection actually a small crate of knives that had been neglected , many of the knives had surface rust , small pitting , many years of neglect many of these knives were mint and near mint and used knives, the knife that you are reffering to was bought from a dealer C. Dourghton from tennessee he had bought out several factorys including western states, utica, and others in the event that you should buy a knife from me and are not 100% satisfied i will refund your money no questions asked that is my standard policy it is rare that it has happened i want you to be happy because we want to keep all of our customers happy. i have hundreds of old knives in various conditions with 50+ years of collecting that i will be selling and dissolving .

As for the Wade & Butcher knife, I think it is still up in the air. Mr. Levine on his site said it was made in Germany, and that Jim Parker before he died had registered a bunch of old names. I wrote the seller, and he is sending me a copy of the Catalog he got it from from Smokey Mountain Knife works, but said if I want to send it back I can get a full refund.

So there is some info I have picked up today!

[El Lobo]

I'm guessing that is Charlie DORTON of Bulldog knife fame...who later was one of the principles who started up Blue Grass Cutlery (still on the site as S and D Enterprises?). But, that's just a guess.
I'm also saying...and this is JMO...that myrtlefaye is full of Kentucky bluegrass.

The late Mr. Parker registered many, many old names. Evertz, Groten, Jack Knife Ben, Kane, Kinfolks, NY Knife, and on and on and on......An awful lot of new/old stock has shown up under these trademarks. Take it for what you feel it's worth.

Bill

P.S.
This opinion in no way is endorsed by Bryan and his site. It is only that of a guy who loves knives and knife collecting.

[PA Knives]

Then all he would have to do to make me happy is sell me the knife "UNPROFESSIONALLY CLEANED" Then I could feel confident that It was the real thing. Simple enough. He doesn't do this because his sales are higher for "Professionally cleaned knives" those that don't know are easily caught up in this. The problem that I have is that in the future, there will be a lot of "CLeaned" knives for sale. You must learn to identify this a if you buy, pay a corrected amount for them. When it comes to antique knives, the cleanest is necessarily the bestest! God I hope I don't it quoted on that one

[9ball]

pa knives,
Then email and tell him that, That you and others are interested in uncleaned knives. That they are worth more to you and others "UNCLEANED". He may not realize there is such a Big market for them.

I have no knowledge of his eBay business, sells, profit margins, inventory, etc, I only know what I see.
It is better to leave them "As Is" in my view. I have looked through several pages of his feedback and some of these folks should know the difference also. I was really surprised.

Explain to him that he would/could be saving time & money by not sending them to a "Professional Knife Cleaner".
Tell him to dig through there and look for knives from Pennsylvania, try to get him to Work.

Remember your Money is Talkin' to him here. Hype it up, tell him your Sam Houston's half-brother's great grandson and he owned a pocket knife like that and you NEED it!

Complaining about it here is Cool, but you gotta get the Word Out and you gotta Make selling this stuff HARD for them. Most of these Buyers know not to polish/clean any coins or other high-end antique. Explain to Buyers that what they are doing by paying these prices.
And it is not just this guy, there are other scams as you know.

If he replies to your email and you know it is fake; Bid, then about an hour before it ends, Cancel your bid and then email him back to see if he needed a crane to move his crate of knives.

I have a couple of "Highly Polished" knives.......but I knew what I was buying and what I felt they were worth and I did not get them on eBay, for sure.

SFC ADP,
I am glad to see someone emailed and asked him. That is good. But, most folks will not return a knife or any item on eBay for that matter, for some reason. MF may know this.
I do not have time to surf the web like I use to; but, For a couple of bucks ($5, I think) on his website, Bernard Levine would give you his opinion on any knife found on eBay. Is this still true?

I will agree with Bill about the Bluegrass and Love of knives, I favor the older ones myself.

BTW: I know a couple of those guys bidding on this knife, I am going over there and give them a "Heads Ups" on it ASAP, just like I would anybody else. I am glad to help them out. I will let them make their own decision.
One of the bidders is one of the few folks I have seen write in Knife World complaining about counterfeit knives on eBay.
He for one needs to know that this may be a scam.

I will invite them over here also.

I believe education will stop alot of this stuff at shows/flea markets/local Co-Op or at where ever folks meet. Remember went I first came here I said some folks view me as "a Threat".
Pa, you yourself said that a guy packed up and cut out when you confronted him about a knife.

But, these kind of tactics do not work on eBay or the internet.

We/I/You do not get to meet or speak with these SellerScammers face to face.
If they know they are selling bogus items/products they do not want you to know or see their face. That is why they are there.

If Seller is a Scammer, he should be Dealt with accordingly. If I see some kind of Scam or something Morally wrong, you can bet I will do everything I can to stop it. JMHO
You can quote me on that also.

[SFC ADP]

Ok, So remember the reply I got back concerning his knives that I posted here? So today out of the blue I get a 2nd e-mail... this time from his wife... I guess... Interesting I guess.

Our apologies for the delay in answering you. Our youngest daughter is in the hosp and has been for over a week with strep and mono, she has been very ill and I have not left her and I am the one who does the replying. In answer to your question, my husband has collected knives for more than 50 years, since he was a youngster. During that time, he has purchased NUMEROUS collections. We have thousands of knives and have decided to dissolve a great deal of the collection in order to have more money for our retirement. Jack's knives are original and just as stated. If Jack has one that he suspects might not be, we state that. And always, we offer a COMPLETE refund for anyone who might not be happy in anyway. Please check our feedback and see that it is outstanding. There are always vicious people like this person who try to cause problems, they have the audacity to do this, but are cowards when it comes to writing to us and identifying themselves. Slander such as this is criminal.
Carol

And here once again was the 1st message...

Several years ago i bought a huge collection actually a small crate of knives that had been neglected , many of the knives had surface rust , small pitting , many years of neglect many of these knives were mint and near mint and used knives, the knife that you are reffering to was bought from a dealer C. Dourghton from tennessee he had bought out several factorys including western states, utica, and others in the event that you should buy a knife from me and are not 100% satisfied i will refund your money no questions asked that is my standard policy it is rare that it has happened i want you to be happy because we want to keep all of our customers happy. i have hundreds of old knives in various conditions with 50+ years of collecting that i will be selling and dissolving .

[9ball]

Well Folks, For what it is worth.....................

I never sent either Seller or Any Bidder an email about their products or bids.

I do not know if I am the one being referred to here but; I am not a Coward or I am not Vicious, In my Belief. I am a just a "Regular Guy" who enjoys and cares for what was one time an Honest & Inexpensive Hobby.

This is pretty much what I would say if I found someone Bad Mouthing me or my products. And to be honest, I expected someone to speak up one day.

I am Sorry for Any Family or Illness problems anyone I know or know of have. I would Not want that on anybody. I would Help any one, any way I could or at least let them know I was there, if needed.

My main concern here is Fraud & Stealing, I have seen it all my Teenage and Adult life. If Items or Deals are Correct that is the most Important Thing to Me.

I just want Folks to be Aware of the Dealing of Fakes, Smooth Talkers and How to Spot/See/Deal with Scams over the Internet and in Life. It is just too Easy to get away with.
I think that is one thing we all have in common or have seen or hear/heard about.

That is what brought me to this website.

Please Read my Very First Thread started in the *Counterfeit Forum* Janunary 2, 2006. ~"? About My Collection Of Counterfeit Pocket Knives"~

9ball

[El Lobo]

9ball,

I don't think that was aimed at you...but, even so, it is a typical denial from a seller who knows what they are doing. You don't handle thousands of knives (their words) and not learn a whole bunch about knives.
NO ONE said they (myrtlefaye) were doing anything illegal or selling counterfeits...just bending the language enough to fool some folks about the true value of a cleaned/repaired/restored/whatever older knife. Questioning someone's description of the items they have for sale is just being a good shopper. It's almost always about the $$$, rarely about the hobby, unfortunately. There are many others, this seller just seems to show up with a lot of slick talk and older knives.

I think it's only smart to talk amongst ourselves here on a KNIFE forum.

Keep slinging it!!

As always, JMO.

Bill

[smiling-knife]

I do not know if I am the one being referred to here but; I am not a Coward or I am not Vicious, In my Belief. I am a just a "Regular Guy" who enjoys and cares for what was one time an Honest & Inexpensive Hobby.

In the short time I have known you, I must agree 100% and more. You have my total support. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. s-k p.s. how do you like my new look?

[9ball]

When I was a young boy about 9 or 10 years old, my Daddy took me down by the railroad tracks and put my head down on the ground.
He said: "Listen Son, you can hear that Train a comin' from miles on down the line"

I believe I am going to go get a six pack of cold beer.

Then I am going to walk over to the the railroad tracks and wait on that Ole # 9.

[smiling-knife]

Hey 9ball. Have a cold one for me too. Just make sure you stay off the tracks. s-k

[PA Knives]

Smiling, love the new look, Bill you are 100% on. I couldn't have said it better myself. 9ball, your experience is invaluable on this forum. Keep it coming.