Moose vs. Muskrat

[treefarmer]

Just noticed a nice knife with a spay and clip blade, a Buck 313 posted by Old Hunter in the "what are you carrying now" thread. Bruce calls it a "Muskrat". When I saw it I thought "Moose". I know there is a Case Muskrat with 2 clips and one with a warncliffe or sheepfoot and a clip, called a Hawbaker. I just bought a Utica Muskrat with 2 clips. I've been using an Old Timer 77OT Muskrat for years, it has 2 clip blades. What makes my 6275 Case a Moose and Bruce's Buck 313 a Muskrat, both have a clip and a spay on opposite ends? Is it size of frame or what?
Treefarmer

[jerryd6818]

I asked the Colonel if Buck called that knife a Muskrat. I'm eager to hear his answer, 'cause it sure looks like what I've always called a Moose.

[Old Hunter]

I asked this same question a couple of years ago concerning the Buck 313; as Buck labeled it a "Muskrat" that is what I go with. To further murk up the water, many of the knives we call a Moose pattern were also known as Texas Jacks (must be at least 3-7/8" long with a wide clip master blade on one end and a spear or spey blade on the opposite end). In looking at the comparison photo I took of my Buck 313 and my Case 6275 I will guess that the master blade is the determining factor - the Buck Muskrat has a typical Turkish Clip master whereas the Case Moose has the required wide clip master blade. Pattern names are always good for lively knife discussions! OH

[Dinadan]

Heck - I thought that a Moose was bigger than a Muskrat and that was the difference. I still have a lot to learn!

[big monk]

I asked this same question a couple of years ago concerning the Buck 313; as Buck labeled it a "Muskrat" that is what I go with. To further murk up the water, many of the knives we call a Moose pattern were also known as Texas Jacks (must be at least 3-7/8" long with a wide clip master blade on one end and a spear or spey blade on the opposite end). In looking at the comparison photo I took of my Buck 313 and my Case 6275 I will guess that the master blade is the determining factor - the Buck Muskrat has a typical Turkish Clip master whereas the Case Moose has the required wide clip master blade. Pattern names are always good for lively knife discussions! OH

Now you opened up a can of worms**** ____ TURKISH CLIP ????___ I have always called the thin clip blade,a ""California Clip"" ____some call the thin blade a ""Muskrat Clip"" ___

[dobro59]

Hey Monk i think people call them all three names. Maybe it has to do with your area of the country you are in????

[jerryd6818]

This is what I have on the clip blades. See the difference in the position of the nail nick on the California clip and on the Turkish clip?

[terryl308]

Let me weigh in on the muskrat/moose subject. I believe the name was applied by the manufacturer. To me the traditional muskrat was one with a small narrow muskrat clip point blade on each end. And a moose was one with the clip point on one end and a trapper style skinning blade on the opposite end. So that would make the buck muskrat (313) a small moose, not a traditional muskrat. Anyway I'm going to stick with tradition and call a muskrat knife one with two identical clip point blades on opposite ends. Mine opinion only, Terry

[jerryd6818]

If I'm stubbornly going to call a Camillus 72 a Whittler because that's what Camillus named it, I guess to be consistent I should call a Buck 313 a Muskrat because that's the name Buck gave it.

[Old Hunter]

Jerry, I do the same with confusing pattern/names - for identification I defer to the company that made the knife. I do believe that that same knife as the Buck 313 Muskrat was made by Camillus under the Remington label as well (except with green/yellow sawcut Delrin handles) - not sure what name Remington marketed it under. The more I look them over and read my books, the more I think the shape of the main blade determines the pattern on this style knife. OH

[RobesonsRme.com]

So, if you're going to depart from a Muskrat being a Muskrat by virtue of having two identical Turkish clip blades in opposite ends and I'm not saying that's wrong, because I too, call a Camillus 72 a "whittler", as that is what Camillus called it, then does a "Hawbaker's Special" cease to be "special" if we have blurred and expanded the definition of a Muskrat?

Just wondering......and seeking cover & concealment.

Charlie Noyes

[Old Hunter]

A Case Hawbaker Special is "special" cause they cost so much for what they are! OH

[Old Hunter]

The more I look the more clues I am finding that the definition we have accepted of the Muskrat pattern as having two identical skinning blades is too narrow. Two versions of Remington's from current e-bay listings. OH

[jerryd6818]

So, if you're going to depart from a Muskrat being a Muskrat by virtue of having two identical Turkish clip blades in opposite ends and I'm not saying that's wrong, because I too, call a Camillus 72 a "whittler", as that is what Camillus called it, then does a "Hawbaker's Special" cease to be "special" if we have blurred and expanded the definition of a Muskrat?

Just wondering......and seeking cover & concealment.

Charlie Noyes

Dang Charlie. Since you retired, you've turned into quite the troublemaker.

And then Case, in their all seeing marketing wisdom, made a "Mini Muskrat". (Thanks to Mike Sexton for the picture on eBay)

[carrmillus]

.......I've got a staglon Camillus-3 7/8" closed, serpentine handles, squared bolsters, 2 turkish clip blades, long line stamped, that I call a muskrat??, also got a staglon Camillus, 3 7/8" closed, straight handled, rounded bolsters,double lined stamped, with clip and spey blades I thought was called a moose??................... ........................

[Old Hunter]

Don't forget the 3-5/8" Case 62032 Confederate "Mini-Moose" - Clip master and Spey secondary blades. OH

Ps For Yankee's there is a Union version and for the politically sensitive there are versions that take no side at all! Something for everyone to muddy the Muskrat - Moose issue from the fine folks at Shepherd Hills!

[1967redrider]

Not again!

72 whittlers, anyone?

[jerryd6818]

Not again!

72 whittlers, anyone?

Me! Me!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cDAqrywsHE[/youtube]

[1967redrider]

[Old Hunter]

In this comparison shot the Buck Muskrat seems to share the lower closed profile that is seen on the typical Muskrat pattern pocketknife (the common ones with two narrow skinning blades). The Case Moose has a much wider/higher closed profile - due to the width of the standard (full width) Clip blade. OH

[RobesonsRme.com]

And Case wasn't the only manufacturer of Hawbaker's Special trapper's knives.

Charlie Noyes

[jerryd6818]

I've been told there are "official" Hawbaker Special Muskrats that are authorized by the family and then there are knives that are "in the style of".

Apparently this is a Hawbaker "Style" muskrat but I like it just the same.

[treefarmer]

Jerry, That one is kinda' pretty. Is it a "real" Robeson or a Camillus?
Treefarmer

[Old Hunter]

While I was doing my research I came across a photo of one of the Case Hawbaker's Special Muskrats and the very, very rare Elvis variation! Need the Elvis next - wonder if it ain't nothing but a hound dog pattern? OH

[RobesonsRme.com]

That's a Queen made Robeson.
Charlie