ARGH!!!

[SFC ADP]

So I have been watching this knife all week, read about it on the Home Page here under the Articles, and it has been sitting at $20.00. Today within an hour it has rocketed up to over $66.00! I dunno, wife may kill me if I buy anymore knives this month!
So if someone here has the budget, this looks like a sweet knife!

Item number: 6607705049

Closed length 3.5". Two blades and both are stamped, Tidioute Cutlery Co--PA. Master has long pull. Flawless ebony wooden handles with a nice inlaid badge shield. Extremely nice blades, I had this piece professionally cleaned. Really a pretty piece. Snaps, fits, works well

[Mossdancer]

Hey SFC;
Thanks for the kick start. Drug out the Jan. KW and read Pa Knives article for the umteenth time. It gets better and more informative every time.

Ah hell, she wont pull out a KA-BAR on ya will she.

I read up on the spike by the way, I got some likely canditates it could be used on or could it be modified to fit a modern piece.
Have a good day.
W.B.

[PA Knives]

I strongly advise that we be cautious of this seller. He always has rare knives that have been "PROFESSIONALLY CLEANED" and I doubt trust that. Buy if you like, but please beaware. It should be clearly understood that this is just my opinion. I have purchased from this seller and had to return. He did return my money though. I am very suspcious of someone who constantly has rare knives and just about one Tidioute knife per week???? Again, just my opinion.

[El Lobo]

I totally agree with pa knives,

He has spent a lifetime looking for the real deal.

We all can get caught up looking at the many cleaned...repaired...replaced...rebuffed...whatever, knives from these sellers. I'm not saying yours is such...just that we not overpay for shiny knives..."worked" by less than truthfull dealers.

JMO.

Bill

[SFC ADP]

well wish I read these posts earlier... I broke down and bought it...
So will have to see what I get.
We should have a list here of sellers to be wary of!

[HickoryNut]

Dont feel too bad, I have bought 30 knives this month, One was from a fellow member on Bryans knife auction. Its an old Case Tested XX and I cant wait to see it. I just bought a 13 knife lot on eBay, all Case XX containing a cheetah, copperlock, russlock, seahorse whittler, canoe, couple folding hunters, a few stockmans and a few others, averaged $22.00 each...not bad. I like buying lots.

[PA Knives]

Folks,

PLease don't misunderstand me, the knife may be just fine, I wouldn't know unless I put my hands on it, but I just caution purchases of professionally cleaned knives. I know plenty of die hard collectors that won't buy from this seller. But that doesn't mean there all bad. Unfortunately in this hobby you just have to be careful. This seller has had more Antique knives that ANYONE I know for sale. They are always the truly hard to fine names. What his listing for a while and see if you agree. I will gladly apologize if I am. If you can, post close up photos of both blades for us to evaluate once you get the knife. Read the counterfiet knife book and compare. Lets hope I am wrong. I don't want to alarm anyone, I just want to help educate. So please don't go screaming until we determine the right answer. The one I purchased and returned to him was a fake. But surely they all can't be?

[El Lobo]

I want to be clear about my comments,

In no way am I trying to "rain on anybody's parade"...not SFC ADP, not anybody. I hope that SFC ADP is happy with the knife, as that's all that really matters.
I'm just addressing sellers who use what to me are less than straight up methods to sell knives. I feel that it is quite confusing for newer collectors...heck, even experienced folks can get "nicked"... and it hurts our hobby in the longer run.

As always,
JMO.

Bill (stepping down off the soapbox)

[SFC ADP]

I am not blaming anyone, I never dealt with the seller, and have been searching for a knife by this brand since I read that article, just to see if I could find one. When I came across this one, I tagged it in my watch list, and have been watching it all week.
But as a group of collectors here, maybe we can expand our knowledge, and have a running watch list, something to cross reference as far as shady sellers on E-Bay.
I do have a counterfeit guide, and will be checking the knife over when I get it. I will also posts the pictures here so you guys can give your opinion.
I am glad to get some input though, that there is a red flag that pops with this seller.

So lets see what happens when I get the knife!

[9ball]

If it is the same guy I have read about here in another post, he bought a knife off of me on eBay last year. Everything went smooth on a selling end
I remember looking at his auctions and I remember they were all antique/old & PROFESSIONALLY CLEANED.
I believe I still have the image on my edukated tv or at least disk. If you would like to see it, I'll see what I can do.
I can tell you this, my knife was not cleaned!
Gotta Run.......

[El Lobo]

Part of what I enjoy here is the learning process. Part is also the fact that the folks that frequent here seem pretty nice and civilized in our discussions. Not always so, on the internet.

In the spirit of discovery I'll take a shot at this knife before it comes to SFC ADP (if it was you who won it ).

I'm NOT saying it's counterfeit...as I don't know enough about this company's patterns or style. I'm just attempting to "read the knife" from the pictures.

So Bill, what the heck is your beef with the seller???

1. "Professionally" cleaning the knife can mean a whole bunch of different things.
2. The buffed look hides blade wear, in my opinion. Is the tip of the master reprofiled...short? How much has the pen blade lost?
3. This seller sells a TON of knives...obviously knows knives. Takes a great in focus picture of the stamp. Why is the photo of the pile side so blurry? Maybe not the same knife?? I look at the kick/choil area of the pen blade and see one rounded kick/choil and sharpened blade (mark side)...and one square kick (barely visible?) and a fuller blade (pile side)...maybe even a better point on the master? The picture is such as to give me pause on this knife. JMO.

I could be completely mistaken...hope I am. It is part of the learning process, and would prove that pictures aren't always seen the same by different people. Oh yeah, it would help soften my cynical side about some of these sellers. But, I'll still think this seller has a tendency to "work" his customers with words and pictures. The VERY questionable return policy is the final straw for me and my money.

Again, just popping off here in participating in the learning process. Hope there is no offense taken.

Interesting thread here, no matter what.

Bill

[PA Knives]

Gosh Bill,

The way you read that knife is excellent. I hope others truly study his thought process on this and save a copy to use when purchasing in the future. Bill and I both agree that until you have knife in hand, the photos don't tell the whole story, but his evaluation of the site itself is remarkable and very accurate in my opinion. It very well may be a valid knife, but Bills points should be weighed against its true value. In addition would want to know if the the liners have been cleaned too. If so, the knife may very well have been taken apart, which poses the question/??? Were the original pieces used to put it back together? One of the reasons with the CASE Warren PA I just bought, I insisted that when I had the bolster pinned, that he did not polish anything. That is a clear sign of possible tampering.

I guess I should have moved this to the counterfiet site to give others another lesson in antique knife collecting. Remember that Bill and I aren't running the class, we are just giving our two cents.

Class is still in session, take out your pencil and notebook and be prepared for a Quiz.

[SFC ADP]

Ok, so I got this knife in the mail today, and these are a few things that I noticed, which now make me ask, is it a fake or no? The guy says I have 7 days for 100% satisfaction or money back.
I highlighted a few areas in the pictures, my main concern is the back spring does not go flush with the knife when the blade is fully opened.
I will be hunting on the internet tonight to see if I can find some pictures of this brand of knife, the maker is Wade & Butcher. The handles look great! They are horn with a touch of white in the horn itself. The pins seem pretty tight, and no burring. I cannot see or notice any bloster pins. The Shield fits in tight as well, no fillers and such, no lips. The inside is cleaned up, there is a little grit here and there inside, maybe from the polishing and cleaning? Liners and Bolsters all are flush as well. The only thing that really catches my eye is the blades and how they fit with the knife, the pen blade seems to need a good push before you get a snap.
So am I overly cautious now? I know it does not help if you do not have the knife in hand, but if I could get some other opinions, I would appreciate it. Other than the blade fit it truly is a great looking knife.
This knife was bought on E-Bay from Mrrknife

This knife measures 3 1/16 inches long closed and has horn handles, crest shield and nickel silver shield, pins and bolsters. Knife dates to 1930's pre WWII. Tang stamped Wade & Butcher, circle with B inside laying on its face, an arrow and Maltese Cross. Knife is mint except for two small scratches on master blade. Beautiful bolsters, shield and handles with no cracks or chips. Never sharpened or carried.

I did find this on the web, same knife... so maybe I am paranoid?
http://www.cuttingedge.com/knives_for_i ... _pen_knife

[wt3l]

WOW!!! I don't know enough about this knife to weigh in ....but I'll say this, boys I am LEARNING from you guys. Thanks so much for discussions such as this one. This, my knifer friends is how we learn.
wt3L

[El Lobo]

SFC ADP,

If you close the pen blade, does the spring then flush up with the main blade? Your pictures only show both blades open on the same spring.
Bill

[SFC ADP]

Hey Bill!
With the pen blade closed, the spring still sticks out the same.
With both blades closed the spring sits in nice and flush with the liners.

[El Lobo]

Doesn't mean it's counterfeit...just not the best knife they could make...maybe why it was for sale? Let's see what Bernard's forum says.

Bill

[SFC ADP]

Just posting these to link to Levine

[SFC ADP]

the best!

[PA Knives]

Here is a link to the same seller who just so happens to have another "vintage Tidioute knife for sale" He must have worked at the factory becuase he has more than I have ever seen in 35 years of collecting.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Baldwin-Tid ... dZViewItem


Something just smells funny about ths. I don't like the stampings on the main or secondary blade at all. Not crisp, not even, look ragged. Now unless I could see it in person, that would make a difference. But don't take my word for it, ask Levine if you like, obviously it has been "professionally cleaned" so you can't tell what is original or not. Folks, I am not trying to bad mouth anyone, but I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. If you look at his knives, it is just to suspicous for me. I like knives, but I want to spend my money wisely. I could be wrong and would be the first to apologize if I am, but if he wants my money he better not clean them like that. I also recall a post a while back on another forum about this guy buying old blades. Make you wonder????

In addition, you must look at the entire knife, not just the tang. Something I am guilty of quit often, as I am looking for manufactureres etc. I don't recall this handle material in other Baldwin knives???? Look at the jigging, fit of the handles, if the knife has been cleaned, how do I know if the the blades were changed????? Repins may have been polished out smooth. Are the liners polished too? Means it was apart, if so WHY!!! Just to many questions for me.

OK I am done. you do what you want with your money, another DANGEROUS seller is one that goes by "sportscolbs" I beleive that is the name. Levine even has warnings about this guy. Remember, don't take my word for it.

LOOK and LEARN folks, it is the only way.

Sorry, but I just get worked up over things like this.

[El Lobo]

If the seller were selling that knife just as a nice little knife to carry and use...well, fine then.
But the come on means I would be standing behind pa knives, NOT touching this knife with an eleven foot pole, as it is a solid example of "Kentucky Mint."

JMO.

Bill

P.S.
The other seller mentioned by pa knives is Sportcolbs. He has some nice modern pieces, and, well...some nice modern pieces. OK, maybe some older pieces. But he is a great yarn spinner as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/JDC-Kane-PA-mother- ... dZViewItem

Why doesn't he just say...'This knife was made in the '90s when the Parker's owned the Kane trademark, and they had some knives made using the old trademark.' ????? Whatever.
JMO, however.

[9ball]

Hello SFC ADP
I am no expert, but that spring pushed down like that would concern me right off. I do have a reference book and that pattern is not shown. Wade & Butcher made a lot of straight razors before they made pocket knives and the razors were well made. At least, the one's I own and have seen. I do not believe that would have passed. JMHO
I have never eyeballed or held one of their pocket knives.

paknives & others

Yep.......that's the same Gent. I checked and I believe it was Oct 2005 when he got the knife off of me and he had Professionally Cleaned knives then, I remember.
You can see him in the reflection on the master blade of the auction/knife I looked at yesterday! It' a mirror polish.
There is a difference between being Cleaned and being Polished.
The knives I have looked at were highly polished.

Most of the folks I know, talk, or have met with want them as found, untouched.

Has anybody ever questioned him (yet ) about having his knives so highly polished?

Sportcolbs
I think he was the one that had a "cockfighter's knife" on eBay awhile back. I saw it posted here later being looked over. Turned out to be a parts knife, something about the bone. Am I correct on this? This was back before I signed up, so I not quite sure. I was watching that knife though.

[PA Knives]

"Has anybody ever questioned him (yet ) about having his knives so highly polished? "

To be honest with you. I truly don't think it would matter. He has a very lucruative busy going now and those of us who are true collectors and study the hobby are not his primary customers. He targets a very different audience. As B. Levine once told me.
"you really think he cares about your concerns?" If he can sell them, you can bet he will continue. Anyway, who are we to tell hime what to do with HIS knives. Mind you I am not protecting him. I am being realistic. I view our job is to educate the new comers and continue to learn ourselves.

Help me out here Bill


As for the other seller, he is similar in nature but comes up with some tall tells about the knives he sells. "JUST BE CAREFUL OUT THERE" get a return promise that is fair, and learn as much as you can about the knife. Of course Bryan has provided us with an excellent source of information right here.

[El Lobo]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell pa...we all just need to keep sharing our experiences...and shop smartly, as it were.

Bill

[9ball]

pa knives

"you really think he cares about your concerns? If he can sell them, you can bet he will continue" Sounds like Greed to me.

I think we need to "Nip it in the Bud". When a Cancer starts growing you get it cut out to Try and Survive.

Do not take me wrong here, I am on your side.
I am not saying to "tell" him what to do with his knives. What I am trying to say is; If he is in it for just the Money, that tells me he's Greedy. So you gotta Bait a guy like this and of course the Bait is Money.......I think it would matter because when Money Talks, Greed Listens.

I haven't the time now, but I'll be back next week. Maybe we can start to see what he is really made out of. It might not stop him, but it will plant a seed in that greedy little receeding hairline forehead.
I got a couple extra bucks to burn on a guy like this, if needed. I might even sell him a nice little "Collection" I've been building.
Remember I have his address, I always give my customers a handwritten receipt on eBay & keep a copy for the tax man.

Every new comer won't find this website and what they are learning (or will) from guys like this is they are in the wrong hobby, and by then it will be too late.

This a good place to come and learn/share ideals and thoughts, but I just can't set around and talk/gossip/whatever about it. Guys like this Work you/us & me, why not Work them?
How long has this been going on?

I have seen scams like this for years and it is not in just knives, but it is growing and growing because of this type Seller. What needs to be done in some kinda plan needs to put together to combat these internet Crimes/eBay Crimes/knife Crimes.
It is my understanding Fraud is still a Crime. The stuff I am seeing now wouldn't fly at any knife show.

We have always dealt with it (Fraud) in a brick & mortar store and at trade shows and folks like this just don't last until seller/dealers come together, so I know there is a way.
You ever been in the Military? Take a guess what happens to these types. On eBay I have been doing it for years (only mentally).......You gotta mess with them.
That's the only way to stop or at least slow them down. It is just Common Sense

As for the other seller, he's from around here. At one time there was a picture of him and Jim Parker shaking hands on his "ME" page.
I have never once seen him at Parker's Show, any auction, in person or any other show.
He was first "the dusty duck" or something like that on eBay and of course he had a PHD (Pile it High & Deep) then. You would think he would have at least a small table set up or buying knives or blowing smoke somewhere other than eBay.

JMHO

Bill.......I'll agree

One thing for sure, These Sellers have got this audience targeted without even trying.

God, Please Help And Keep Us Safe In Our Travels So I Can Come Back To eBay And Create Havoc On One Of Your Strayed Sheep. Amen

Gotta run, gotta mission