What makes a Whittler a Whittler?

[flangster]

I was looking at a recent thread with pix of folks' recent whittler purchases. I realized, I don't know what the essential feature of this pattern is? Anyone help a newbie out?

[Mumbleypeg]

Go to the thread called"Vintage Whittler Knives" in the General Knife Discussion forum (you can find it quickly by using the search feature). Go to page 9 of that thread. There is a discussion of your question there. I'd post the link directly to it if I knew how - gonna have to learn how to do that I guess. There's some things this #*%* iPad just doesn't want to do.

Ken

[FRJ]

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... &start=120

[jerryd6818]

In the knife world, pattern definitions can sometimes be a bit murky. The Whittler is one of those patterns. There is the definition the Purists give for that pattern and those folks accept nothing that doesn't meet their specifications.

Steve has documented a pretty good definition in the Research section (dark blue/gray line above) under Case Pattern Names. This is what he has to say on the subject and I think it would be acceptable to the Purists. This is written for Case knives but it applies to other brands too.

"Any knife that uses a split-back spring construction falls into the whittler category. The split-back design uses two springs that support a large single blade on one end, and two smaller blades on the other. The larger blade uses both springs, and each small blade rides on its own spring. All knives that work in this manner are referred to as whittlers regardless of the shape or design of the handle. This allows for many different styles of whittler knives
with numerous names. Some include balloon whittler, seahorse whittler, equal end whittler, sleeveboard whittler etc. There is more work that goes into their construction than almost any other styles of knife. They have always been very collectable patterns. Case’s most well known recently manufactured whittlers include the following patterns: 08, 80, 83, and 55. A few whittlers have three springs and are usually known as a three spring whittlers."

One of the Whittler the Purists don't accept (there are others such as the three spring whittler), the Camillus Carpenter's and Whittler's #72. The name changed sometime between 1965 & 1973 or so to just plain Camillus Whittler. In my opinion Camillus called it a Whittler because of the blade compliment. To me, the coping blade and small clip blade make it a whittler and not as some would call it a Stockman. There's quite a bit of controversy over the naming of this pattern. See a sample below.

[Colonel26]

Looks like Cuz beat me to it.

Now you done went and did it! Lol. That's a topic that gets kicked around a lot, with some pretty strong opinions thrown in. Some claim it has to be of split spring construction with the master blade riding between two secondaries. Some take it a step farther claiming that one of the secondaries has to be a coping blade. Many say that even if it has the right blade compliment a stockman pattern cannot be a whittler, others say if it has a coping secondary then yes, a stockman can be a whittler.

From what I have read the term whittler was coined by collectors and not the knife companies. I don't know. I brought up the Camillus 72 (swell center stockman frame with "whittler" blades) to the former curator of the National Knife Museum and asked his opinion on whether it was a true whittler. He was emphatic that it was most definitely a whittler for two reasons. #1 Camillus called it a whittler, and most importantly because it has a coping blade secondary. Since it was designed for wood work it was a true whittler in his opinion.

That was good enough for ME. Others disagree, and that's fine, your knives, call em what you like!

[jerryd6818]

Yeah, Cuz. A lot of dust and feathers over the Camillus 72 and it's clones. BUT the stockman has been a knife intended for farmers and ranchers for a long, long time. BECAUSE it has a sheepfoot blade and more importantly a spay blade. Important blades to farmers and ranchers. I don't think too many of those fellas would say, "I just can't do without the coping blade & small clip blade on a Camillus 72."

[Colonel26]

IMO, and only mine, I could do everything I need to do on the farm, including the spey blade stuff, with a Camillus 72. The shape of that small clip lends itself to to doings the spey work.

The ONLY thing that would disqualify the 72 from being used as a stockman on the farm, for me, would be the size. It just ain't big enough for these mitts to do lots of extended kife stuff. For edc, slacks carry its more than enough, I'm a fan!

[cato]

razor stubble, tobacco stains, and the smell of Dentine mixed with bourbon ... lol

[Mumbleypeg]

Not gonna get into the argument about whether or not the Camillus 72 is a Whittler or a stockman, but I will opine about the whittler name originating with collectors. IMHO it was the cutlery manufacturers. Old (pre-1950) knife company catalogs call pen knife patterns having a master riding on two backsprings on one end, and two secondary blades on the opposite end, a "whittler". These catalogs do not however call other patterns whittlers, at least not any that I have seen. Maybe there were some collectors around in the first half of the 20th century - who knows? Knife swapping was certainly going on back then based on stories from my father and grandfather. But I don't think the hobby of pocket knife collecting started to flourish until the late 1960s. It would be interesting to know when these knives were first referred to as whittlers in a catalog.

I think the answer to the OP question is clearly "A whittler has two springs. The large thick master blade, at one end of the knife, bears on both of the springs. The two small thin blades, at the other end of the knife, each bear on one of the springs." Bernard Levine, Levines Guide to Knives, 5th Edition, page 243.

Ken

[knifeaholic]

Not gonna get into the argument about whether or not the Camillus 72 is a Whittler or a stockman, but I will opine about the whittler name originating with collectors. Old (pre-1950) knife company catalogs call pen knife patterns having a master riding on two backsprings on one end, and two secondary blades on the opposite end, a "whittler". These catalogs do not however call other patterns whittlers, at least not any that I have seen. Maybe there were some collectors around in the first half of the 20th century - who knows? Knife swapping was certainly going on back then based on stories from my father and grandfather. But I don't think the hobby of pocket knife collecting started to flourish until the late 1960s. It would be interesting to know when these knives were first referred to as whittlers in a catalog.

I think the answer to the OP question is clearly "A whittler has two springs. The large thick master blade, at one end of the knife, bears on both of the springs. The two small thin blades , at the other end of the knife, each bear on one of the springs." Bernard Levine, Levines Guide to Knives, 5th Edition, page 243.

Ken

Ken;

Which manufacturer catalogs pre 1950 have you seen that use the term "whittler"? Just curious since I have studied old knife catalogs for many years and have never seen that term used in a catalog prior to the late 1960's. I would love to know some examples just for my own knowledge.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Doesn't have to be two springs. Earlier examples have a one piece forged spring that divides into two at one end. Rare, but they do exist.

Not all two spring whittlers have a "divider" at the secondary two blade end either. Robeson certainly made whittlers without a divider.

This discussion will go on forever in one venue or another.

As to Camillus' 72 pattern "Whittler". That's what they called it. What's to argue?

Charlie Noyes

[Mumbleypeg]

Uh-oh. Now I'm gonna question myself. Have to go look. May be confused between catalogs and collector books.

Ken

Edit: Steve, you are right as usual. You're almost as bad as my wife! I found the examples I was thinking of (pics posted below) but they don't say whittler. They say "mechanic and carpenters knife". The first one isn't in a catalog either, it's a Remington advertisement from 1931, which is in a reprint I have of Remington's C30 catalog. The second picture is from Western States Cutlery 1959-60 catalog. So, I was wrong and stand corrected! Thanks for keeping me honest! My apologies to all on AAPK (I hate being wrong! )

Ken

[jerryd6818]

flangster -- You're just a born troublemaker, aren't you.






Since you're a fairly new guy, in case you hadn't figured it out, all this stuff means I'm just jerkin' your chain.

[flangster]

Oooh. I'm in it now. Seriously though: it is something of a relief to know that my confusion might be . . . because it is confusing. But I'll tell you true: every time I log on here, I learn something. That is pretty cool, I have to say.

[carrmillus]

....now y'all have really opened up a can of worms!!!!........... ...........

[Colonel26]

Uh-oh. Now I'm gonna question myself. Have to go look. May be confused between catalogs and collector books.

Ken

Edit: Steve, you are right as usual. You're almost as bad as my wife! I found the examples I was thinking of (pics posted below) but they don't say whittler. They say "mechanic and carpenters knife". The first one isn't in a catalog either, it's a Remington advertisement from 1931, which is in a reprint I have of Remington's C30 catalog. The second picture is from Western States Cutlery 1959-60 catalog. So, I was wrong and stand corrected! Thanks for keeping me honest! My apologies to all on AAPK (I hate being wrong! )

Ken

Ken if that's as wrong as you get, you're in good shape, lol.

While I do really like my Camillus 72's, I get all giddy about split spring Whittlers. Make mine a Western with Rogers bone, 4 inches, laws a mercy!

[carrmillus]

..colonel, I agree with you!!!...I love te "72's", but to me, a true whittler is the split-backspring!!!!....... ..............

[Dinadan]

flangster - here are photos of four cheap China whittlers that illustrate the arrangement of the springs and blades. Note that the Colt (the knife on the bottom) is a split backspring whittler with a tapered spacer between the springs. The knife next to it is a RR. The third knife is a Klass lockback, and the knife on the top is a RR three backspring lockback whittler.

Until just a year ago I never knew that the term whittler referred to a specific pattern knife. When I saw the term I just took it to be descriptive of a knife that would be good for whittling. How quickly things change! Now I have become a bit obsessed with whittlers!

[carrmillus]

..mel, if you find a cure for the disease, let me know!!!!........... .............

[Dinadan]

..mel, if you find a cure for the disease, let me know!!!!........... .............

Right now I do not want to be cured!

[Mumbleypeg]

It's called an addiction! I don't want to be cured either........

Ken

[RobesonsRme.com]

Was the Official Boy Scout Camillus 72 pattern not called a "Whittler"?

Fuel to the fire, so to speak...............

Charlie Noyes

[carrmillus]

.....I don't have a catalog that shows it, but I think it was !!!................... ..................

[RobesonsRme.com]

Not called a "Whittler" per se, but described as being a "Whittlers" knife.

Probably, these images are post 1950.

Interesting that the pen and coping blades are reversed in the two images below.

I checked my copy of the recently reproduced Robeson Cutlery Company catalog from the early 1900's. They did not call any of their whittlers, "Whittlers". They called all of them, regardless of size, or blade selection "Pen" knives, even the jumbo whittler.

Charlie Noyes

[carrmillus]

...I think the one with the pen paired with the master is the short-line(1946-1956)and the one with the coping blade paired with the master is the long-line(1960-1976). between these was the no-line, but I've never seen a whittler with this stamp, so I don't know how it was configured???........... ..............