KA-BAR OLEAN WW2

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:25 pm

Hi:
Just found this utility knife. Appears to be authentic. Condition is close to being mint. Check it out. Comments welcome. Year it was made would be nice.
moss

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:16 am

Nice KA-BAR!

Looks like bake-o-lite or similar plastic and leather handle materials, blade appears to have never been sharpened, sweet.

Just a guess, I think it's a M-2, dated prior to 1951, more like mid-late 40s?

Good 1

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:04 am

Nice score WB!

Now, that knife does NOT look like it has been used on a fishing boat!

Dale

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:24 pm

Thanks guys:
This was one of the answers by KA-BAR to the Cattaraugus 225Q. It was a stout 6" bladed utility knife for fighting or opening supplies. The knife from KA-BAR was from their commando series. Wonder if that's where the 225Q came to be referred to as the commando. The grip was leather with plastic spacers on the ends. Funny you said that Dale. I found this in the bottom of a fishing box.
wb

EDIT; Insert KA-Bar instead od Case.

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:28 am

Hey ol Mossy1,

I carry this one in my truck, had to go dig it out. It's sorta like yours.

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:01 am

Hey GMan:
The devil made me do it. The subject I mean. Without using a wire wheel you oughta clean that old fella up. There is a possibility you have a pretty early KA-BAR there. I would not place any bets on that black sheath being original to it, but depending on what knife it is the sheath might be original. Why don't you lay it next to a fairly accurate ruler. Make sure if possible that an increment marker on ruler is coincident with the bottom edge of guard. Also need to know the coloration sequence of the leather
stacks. Maybe even the color of spacer between tang and handle and likewise for the spacer between pommel and handle. How thick is the pommel. Is anything exposed on the top of it. Does the back of sheath have any writing on it. Any marks on snap. Do you know anything of knifes history. Thanks. And then again it could be a newer repro. Never hurts to look.
moss

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 am

overall length: 11 3/4"

blade length: 6 3/4"

handle length: 4 7/8" (I lost a 1/8" somewhere)

single black plastic spacer at guard and pommel

stacks appear to all be same color leather

exposed tang end through pommel like yours

there is a single pin going through one side of the pommel attaching it to the tang you can see it in the picture

no markings on the sheath anywhere

I've rubbed this thing till my fingers are cramping, still dirty, will continue later.

Thanks Moss.................

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:34 pm

Hi gmus:
I have scoured every site I know of and can not find your exact knife. The short false edge leads me to believe that it is a newer knife. That being said I just do not know. I still think you should pursue it though.
Finding the attribution of these guys is the interesting part to me. And when it proves to be an old one the history is fantastic.
Good Luck,
W.B.

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:19 pm

Thanks for the effort Moss!

I'll keep an eye out for anything in my library.

seeya..................

useem · Post by **useem** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:20 pm

The guard on mine came from the factory with a slight curve, towards the handle. I bought mine in 1986, i think the guard on yours is straight, so i am assumeing it is even older than mine. Maybe someone knows when they stopped making them with straight guards

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 pm

If I remember correctly (hey it's a long shot

) the older knives were maked on the guard, newer on the ricasso.

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:42 pm

Yea, this one just doesn't have the "old" look and feel to it, it's going back out to the truck!

Hey Hukk, back in my construction days (1979) we put the parking structure up there at the mall at Bicentennial and 101, is it still standing? LOL! Now you where not to park!

seeya.......................

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:02 pm

gmusic wrote:Yea, this one just doesn't have the "old" look and feel to it, it's going back out to the truck!

Hey Hukk, back in my construction days (1979) we put the parking structure up there at the mall at Bicentennial and 101, is it still standing? LOL! Now you where not to park!

seeya.......................

Bicentennial and 101, that would be Kaiser Hospital which has expanded so much that they have built a second hospital 1.5 miles up the road - north. Speaking of 101, it is and has been a parking lot. Only major highway in and out of Santa Rosa (~190,000 population) they are making it 3 lanes both ways from Healdsburg to Navato. By the time they're done they will need 4 lanes.

soulmanticore · Post by **soulmanticore** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:22 am

I don't know what issue it was but i am pretty sure that Knife World did a whole article in their military section on the Mark - 2's , Dating , tang stamps, different companies that made them. so on and so forth. I will dig the trunk out of the attic and see if i can find it.

Until next time.
Shane

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:53 am

Hey thanks Shane!

I may have to rescue it from the truck again!

gary

soulmanticore · Post by **soulmanticore** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:32 am

Well I found the Issue. It was actually a two part series. ( December 2005, and Jan. 2006)
Give me a couple of days I'll read through the two articles and give you all the good stuff and leave out the rest. There is quite a bit of info. there. You know, my sister has a scanner. Maybe i could get a scan of the articles. this way you have the pictures too. That won't break any copy right laws will it?

Also if you would like to read it yourself, I would be more than happy to send you the two papers to review.

Until next time

Shane Stone

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:09 am

Hey Shane,

Scans would be a lot of trouble; if you could just glean some highlights from the articles that would be great.

Thanks, Gary

soulmanticore · Post by **soulmanticore** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:42 am

Well i read through the articles and highlighted some of the main points. I'll start out by saying that this article was written by Frank Trzaska.

The official name for the usmc fighting knife is the 1219c2 and the companies initially solicited for this project were Boker, Camillus, Robeson, Union Cutlery and western. The design settled on was the union cutlery pattern # 571 with the 7 1/2 inch blade. The 71 series pattern made by union since 1929 consisted on the 271, 471, 571 and tese models were available in 4 5 6 7 inch lengths. handle matterials were leather, buckhorn, stag and fiberlite. there was a spinoff pattern which included the 664. which was just a dressed up model with bone handles.

The marine corps adopted the pattern of dec. 9 1942 and contracts given to Pal, Robeson, and union. W R case and sons made some samples but were left out of the contracts.

specific requirements for the knife were for the balde to be 1095 high carbon ussi. the blades were to be blackened to protect the steel and to reduce light reflection. the mark side was to be stamped with the manufacturers name. While the pile side was to be stamped with USMC in block letters. The hand guard was to be mounted between the balde tang and the red fiber spacer. the guard was to have an eight degree bend back toward the handle. The 1219c2 protos made by union cutlery co were virtually all hand made. Since union did not have the tooling to produce the pommels they were contracted to Whitman and Jassons.

The first knives consisted of a very blunt tip blade with the short false edge and a longer thin width steel guard but the thickness of the guard was 5/32" as compared to 3/32" on the red spacer knives that followed them. These knives are quite rare. no more than a few thousand at best.
These knives had the pommel peened in place,welded and ground smooth

The first change came on 12/23/42 with the 1219c2a. the point was redesigned to a more sweeping curve with a deeper clip false edge. At this point we get into the familar red spacer knives. the first generation, Red Black Red spacer pommel end knive. the 2nd generation knives exhibited the long thin guard but the rear spacer was change to all black. All knives up to this point had the red spacer at the guard and 1/4 " round pommel attached to the round tang. At some point in did production of the first gen. knives the tangs were left unfinished with just the round peened tang expose. this fastening carried on through the third gen. of the union knives, but the pommel was changed april 3 1943 making this generation the 1219c2c. the thickness of the pommel was increace to a full 3/8". the guard was also made shorter and wider. the use of a spacer was suspended by union at this point so we have the blade marked usmc knife with a short wide guard and a thick round peened pommel. these knives are very common. the next change was again strengthen the pommel by leaving the tang in its rectangular form. the pommel then place over the rectangular tang and peened in place. on the blade the Olean NY address on the second line was discontinued leaving just kA-BAR.

Well that about some up the first paper. I'll get to the second one tomarrow. it deals with the other companies. i would do it tonight but i havn't type this much since high school and my fore arms are starting to get the best of me. Hope this helps a little. And i'll leave by saying that Frank does say in the article that there are a few crossover knives out there.

Until Next Time,

Shane

gmusic · Post by **gmusic** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:26 pm

Thanks Shane! That is a lot of information.............All of which fits this knife except the pommel is pinned on. I remember straightening the guard years ago because I didn't like the downward angle; I rubbed off all the blackening from the blade also.

What makes me think it a copy is the pommel is pinned and the pin doesn't go all the way through! It is only on one side which has caused the pommel to tilt to one side a little. I think you can see it in the pictures.

Thank you again for your time and research.

gary

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:17 pm

Great research Shane, thank you.

There are a lot of these knives out there, in fact I have 3 or 4 of them in my shop now, waiting for me to get to them. I took in one yesterday from my hunting partner. It belonged to his dad & his dad wanted me to fix the handle on it.

Please share any more research you have on these old beauties. I think there are lots of these around that have made their way into the gear of hunters. Some in original condition, and others that have been modified somewhere along the way. They have good steel & make a remarkably serviceable hunting knife. The one from my hunting partner had a few dings on the spine where his dad has split the pelvis of several deer by pounding the knife with a rock. It is a testimony to their quality that the edge is fine, only the spine has any dings in it.

Thanks again,
Dale

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