eBay and the USPS

[Forensic Jim]

I new it was going to happen sooner or later. I sold a knife on eBay on Aug. 15th. The knife was mailed by me on Aug. 16th, and the buyer has not received it yet. He did not get insurance, and wants his $140.00 refunded. My postmaster tells me that delivery confirmation is just what it says, it is supposed to be scanned when it is delivered. She claims they do not scan items with preprinted labels. This buyer now claims that since it wasn't scanned when I mailed it, there is no proof that I even did. My postmaster even called him to explain that with the large amount of packages they receive, that it is not feasible to scan them, and they don't. Consequently, the buyer feels I am dishonest, and is going to leave me a very negative feedback. Now I feel compelled to make insurance mandatory on all of my sales no matter what the item sells for. I include a disclaimer on my listings that insurance is optional, and I am not responsible for postal loss or damage. Any one have any thoughts on this matter. Truthfully, this situation has really bothered me, and I question if it's worth it even selling on eBay.

[Forensic Jim]

I decided to refund this mans money. I will also have a talk with the postmaster regarding scanning my packages. It really seems if they can protect the seller by scanning a package, they should just do it.

[Hukk]

You always take that chance on every item you sell. I believe this is why you see so many $6-$8.00 and up shipping fees. Just add shipping includes insurance to every auction and I believe anything over $200.00 can be mailed signature required. YOU set the terms NOT the buyer. Either he wants it or he doesn't. I'm starting to see this more and more sellers list their knives the way I did above. You and the buyer are in this mess over $2.45, I'm not sure if you can get signature required on items less than $200.00, but that also means the mail carrier has to be willing to take the time for a signature.
The buyer may have received it, you don't know, delivery confirmation is a waste of money. SO, don't pay him since he was to cheap to spend $2.45.

You made insurance available, he chose not to buy it. Let it go through due process and keep very little money in the PayPal account should they choose to freeze it. You may lose, you may win, block the buyer for now. and see how it plays out, ride the storm.
Once a carrier is hired, it's just about impossible to fire him.

Sorry to hear about your predicament, more and more sellers are going with the insurance included in shipping as described above.

[Hukk]

I decided to refund this mans money. I will also have a talk with the postmaster regarding scanning my packages. It really seems if they can protect the seller by scanning a package, they should just do it.

Don't you have a 30 day period or something like that? I guess you're a better man than I, I'd ride it out and damn the negative threats.

[jonet143]

how long has it been mailed? i think you should ride it out. let ebay do the work. a negative makes you feel bad but you can respond to neg feedback with your side of the story. the buyer is responsible, he decided to take a chance and save the couple of dollars. when i see neg feedback on a seller i have interest in, i read the feedbacks of both to determine who is at fault. like hukk said, he may have the knife and wants his cake as well. with priority mail, insurance, you can still be fair with a small ($6.50 -$8.00) shipping charge. i, as a buyer take shipping into account when i bid. when i'm the seller, i insure for my own protection anything over what i'm willing to lose. good luck.

[useem]

It is entirely possible that he DID recieve the knife. The post office once handed me a package that i was supposed to sign for, with out me signing anything. I realized it when i got home and sent an e-mail to the seller, saying i had indeed recieved the package. I also think you should ride it out.

[needbucks]

I have been in that guy's shoes before. I would imagine that somewhere between $1300 and $1500 of my stuff has been "lost" over the last 5 years. I always buy the insurance when it is offered. I have also left negative feedback when items got lost and no insurance was offered.

All I can say is that negative feedback doesn't really make a big difference to me as long as it is not given too often.

The point is that insurance was offered. He chose not to purchase it. I wouldn't have refunded his money. Of course, being a conscientious person you have already done that. And there is every possibility the guy will give negative feedback anyway.

[Forensic Jim]

I already refunded the mans $140.00 through paypal. I spoke with a paypal representative and he assured me that unless I can prove that the knife was mailed, I don't have a leg to stand on. He said that they would side with the buyer, and just take the money out of my account. I also just got back from my post office and had a talk with the post master. She said that no office scans a preprinted label when they come in, not even insured. Says it's too labor intensive, and then she showed me what it entailed, and she was right. The scanning was the easy part, she then had to punch in every number on the package. So technically, if an item is mailed, there is no proof it was. And god help you if they don't scan it when it is delivered. I've seen catch-22's in my day, but this takes the cake. And honestly when someone accuses me of being dishonest, that makes me see red real quick.

[BIGHEAD]

Every item with del.conf. is supposed to be scanned at rec,next stop p.o. and when it is delivered, every time i use del.conf. i am able to track the package on the USPS web site. This doesn't mean that the package doesn't sit in the recipients hometown p.o. for 3-4 days before being delivered

[jonet143]

i don't use preprinted labels. yes, i endure a small line at the p.o. but i get recepts with destinations from the post office. save your ins. receipts as well.

[Hukk]

I already refunded the mans $140.00 through paypal. I spoke with a paypal representative and he assured me that unless I can prove that the knife was mailed, I don't have a leg to stand on. He said that they would side with the buyer, and just take the money out of my account. I also just got back from my post office and had a talk with the post master. She said that no office scans a preprinted label when they come in, not even insured. Says it's too labor intensive, and then she showed me what it entailed, and she was right. The scanning was the easy part, she then had to punch in every number on the package. So technically, if an item is mailed, there is no proof it was. And god help you if they don't scan it when it is delivered. I've seen catch-22's in my day, but this takes the cake. And honestly when someone accuses me of being dishonest, that makes me see red real quick.

So, if you print your labels using PayPal WITH INSURANCE there is still no proof that the item was mailed. Good thing I know when my PO is least busy.
Can you imagine what the PO would look like if every seller went to the PO to ship. Only way to prove you sent it.

So, that would also mean that even if you bought insurance through PayPal shipping, you also have no evidence to make an insurance claim and again will be out the money. So, use PayPal as a buyer, not a seller, no protection for a seller at all.

I just bought 3 pieces of Eggerling Mosaic Damascus last night and that was over $300.00, would have been more if they were all billets, one was a set of very thick bolsters (.256 inches), billets are $120.00 to $130.00 and I did insure them. I have dealt with this seller for a very long time and I believe we would work something out rather than force an issue where one of us loses all. I couldn't do that since he has been so helpful and freely giving me GREAT advice about working with Eggerling's Damascus. That's a huge amount of data and takes a lot of time.

Shame, I won't get to use it until I get caught up with my backlog.

[Forensic Jim]

That's correct Hukk. Even with insurance and a paypal/eBay generated shipping label, they don't scan it at the post office. I just checked on some knives that I mailed recently, and there is no proof that the post office even received them, it just shows when I printed the labels. I won't be using the printed labels anymore. Everything will have to require insurance, and I will have a receipt to verify that I mailed it. When my post master spoke to the man who bought the knife, he asked her if she could prove that the knife was mailed, and of course her response was, "no". When the post master showed me what it took to scan an item and put in all the numbers, it took her a couple of minutes. I took in fifteen knives today. That would take close to half an hour to process all those. I wonder if anyone else's post office scans their packages?

[jonet143]

jim, i sometimes meet my postman at the street when i am expecting something. i have seen them scan with a little scanner and i've seen him just hand me my stack of mail and not scan. it's a crapshoot. they charge for it but there is no benefit.

[Hukk]

Then again, there is no benefit to using PayPal's services other than collection of money. The only item I ever had lost had a PO receipt. I'd forgotten it, cause it was only a $7.00 piston wrench for an M1 carbine. Pays to go to the PO. I did send him another, $$ wasn't worth worrying, and he paid the shipping on the second one.

[BIGHEAD]

Well guys i just talked to my wife who delivers mail.She suggested that you speak to the postmaster which it seems you have. Next she said you need to speak with the postal inspectors office.she said she has a scanner in her vehicle and has to scan all packages with del. conf. or insurance,express mail,certified letters,registered mailreturn recipt mail. That includes pick-up or delivery. So somebody just isn't doing their job.

[9ball]

Hi,
Sorry about you losing your money/item.
If I was you I would be pissed at the post office about right now. This and other reasons are why Folks want to see it "Privatized". The Texas Tank brought this up in another thread/forum, I should have clarfied my thoughts then.

If you went through PayPal, he will get the money back.
Get in there and print out all records of this transaction now, you will need it.

Time to go above Postmaster's head.

Sit down and write Two nice letters explaining this about your package not getting scanned. Be sure and let then know you are a Taxpayer.

Here is a few ideals to get your motor runnin':

1.Violation of laws, rules, or regulations
2.Theft of mail by employee or contractor
3.Computer misuse or crime
4.Significant case of mismanagement
5.Intentional or improper use of Government resources, to include: misuse of rank, authority, or position; misuse of resources such as Tools, vehicles, and other Equipment.
6.Extravagant, needless, or careless expenditure of Government funds
7.Deficient Practices, Systems, Controls and/or Decisions


Go here http://www.uspsoig.gov/index.cfm
click on "Contact Us" and send that letter or click on "Complaint Form" at the bottom and fill it out.

Now.......send the other copy of that letter, text adjusted to your Congressman/woman/person. Be sure to send it Certified Mail. Be sure and let him/her know you Vote (their way ).

Send them and email of it also, Daily.


Be sure and keep a log and paper trail of all this. Take names, keep good records.

You are going to have to take ole 9ball's word on this one. You will most likely get some one's job.
Hukk is right about it being hard for postal workers to be fired, but You may have to be a little persistent.
These folks make good money and have a nice little retirement & health care plan. They may keep it, but be demoted or put on as a sub.

If those scanners do not work, the carrier is suppose to manually enter the number. And if that does not work, they better be writing it down went they get back in or getting a new scanner.

The USPS has cut deals with eRip, PayPal, DHL, etc. Trucking companies/contractors now bid on delivering the larger loads now.
DHL even delivers their packages to our local PO and from that the route carriers get paid for each package they deliver.

You are the Boss a.k.a. Taxpayer here, It is your money and you/we are paying for it.

Also you will need to file or put a trace on the package. You can get the form at any PO. PO will send the buyer a letter where he states that he never received it. If they find he did.......they call that "Postal Fraud".

IIRC Johnnie used that term on a Fluky Nife dealer way back


In the future; If you offer PayPal, do not use those Postal print-outs. Even your printer could be screwed up. Always use the white & green Delivery Confirmation forms the Post Office provides.

I make insurance an option. If Buyer pays for it, Great. If item sells for over 50 bucks, I insure it myself if they do not.
That list I put on the Counterfeit Forum is a good start.


Only use PayPal for the amount you are comfortable to Lose.


9ball

No overseas PayPal.......No Way, No How, No Siree Bob .

[9ball]

EDIT
What BIGHEAD Said.......

[emw12]

I I include a disclaimer on my listings that insurance is optional, and I am not responsible for postal loss or damage. Any one have any thoughts on this matter.

Forensic Jim

This subject has been tossed around in a previous thread. As I stated then "your disclaimer" has no legal value. The knives belomg to you until they are delivered into the buyers hands. Transfer of ownership takes place upon the buyer receiving and accepting them. The PO is acting as your agent, hired to deliver them. Your recourse is with the PO -- but only if you purchased postal insurance on them. Weather the PO scans the item or not if you have insurance it is up to them to prove they were delivered or pay off on the insurance. This is why I said in the other thread that every seller should include insurance cost in their S&H charger. It is for the seller's protection and should never be optional to the buyer.

[BIGHEAD]

Dang Earl did you really want to get that point across?

[jonet143]

hey earl; i deleted three of your repeats.

are you a lawyer?

[Hukk]

I I include a disclaimer on my listings that insurance is optional, and I am not responsible for postal loss or damage. Any one have any thoughts on this matter.

Forensic Jim

This subject has been tossed around in a previous thread. As I stated then "your disclaimer" has no legal value. The knives belomg to you until they are delivered into the buyers hands. Transfer of ownership takes place upon the buyer receiving and accepting them. The PO is acting as your agent, hired to deliver them. Your recourse is with the PO -- but only if you purchased postal insurance on them. Weather the PO scans the item or not if you have insurance it is up to them to prove they were delivered or pay off on the insurance. This is why I said in the other thread that every seller should include insurance cost in their S&H charger. It is for the seller's protection and should never be optional to the buyer.

The legal definition of a sale is what I see written. The PO will and does play stupid. PayPal provides all kinds of benefits for the buyer as seller PayPal provides...........................................an account.

[sunburst]

Sorry for jumping in so late here but the exact same thing happened to me Jim. My wife has always pushed me to use the Paypal preprint labels and I did, never had a problem. Until one day I carried a couple of knives to the post office and dropped them off. One of the packages did not make it to the buyer. The buyer was a very reputable knife collector so when he called me I was a little shocked.

I went online to track the package and all it showed was the fact that I bought the label to be mailed, nothing recorded at the post office. When I spoke to the post office they told me they had no record of me mailing anything with them. I had no receipt, so I had no proof.

I reimbursed the man his money and gave up on my 1916 Pearl handled Terrier jack knife..

Since that time I have never used preprinted labels again and only hand deliver all my packages and let them label the boxes at the post office. I then have proof of mailing them with a receipt and know they are being scanned.

I agree that as a seller I should at the minimum have signature confirmation on all my sales. Jim I am sorry to hear about this, I walked away from selling on Ebay for 9 months I was so mad and even now I do so only on rare occasions. I try to only purchase on ebay because all the rules favor the buyer and not the seller..

Sunburst

[emw12]

I might add one thing here. For a small fee ($1 or $2) the PO will issue you a proff of mailing. This proves that you mailed the package. It has all the pertient information recorded on it. Your name and address and the recepients's name and address, date and time of mailing, amount of insurance (if any), ect.

[XxBubbaXx]

I don't sell anything on ebay over $50.00 w/o providing insurance myself, this is for MY protection as well as the buyers. it is such a small fee and I include it in the shipping AND HANDLING charges. I have had a few comments about my shipping charges being a little high but after explainig what the handling charges entail and that it includes insurance then most people are satisdfied with that. i absolutely refuse to ship anything over that value w/o insurance and i always hand deliever it to the post office.
the fact that you refunded his money says a lot about your integrity tho, kudos to you!

[Sqg1]

I have found that you pay a lot more for postage through PayPal then you do when you take it to the post office. I tried to send a plastic scooter part to Canada, Paypal showed the shipping cost as $21.00. I took it to the post office and they charged $7.00. I even have postal scales to weight the packages and it cost me $1.00 to $1.50 more per knife to use Paypal.