Outgas?

[Elvis]

The National Knife Museum has a procedure to combat outgassing celluloid.

They thoroughly clean the knife, then coat it with Krylon Clearcoat.

Might not be for everybody, I suppose.

Charlie Noyes

Seems to me that they'd have to remove the handles to do that properly. Don't ya think?

[RobesonsRme.com]

Yes, I think they disassembled the knife, cleaned everything thoroughly, applied the Krylon ClearCoat, then reassembled.

This process was described to me by Pete Cohan, former director of the NKM.

It's most certainly a salvage operation to preserve something that would be difficult to replace if lost to the vagaries of out-gassing celluloid.

Charlie Noyes

[Elvis]

Thanks Charlie! It just seemed that they would need to coat the entire piece(s) of celluloid for that to work.

Going through my own collection a few days ago, I noticed I had one showing signs of turning. A 1992 Case Classic 73083 had just the tip of the shield turning brown. I immediately took it out of the display case, then to the shop the next morning. Even though it was just the tip of the bolster that was noticeable, there were already a couple of specks on the blade (all the others were fine). Yes, it's the Waterfall style. The worst offender out there.

I gently pryed the handles off (there were no spun pins), cleaned all surfaces and applied several coats of Ren Wax before sliding them back over the pins. It looks great now and I'll dig this thread up again if anything changes on that knife. I think the Ren Wax will hold. Thoughts?

[orvet]

I gently pryed the handles off (there were no spun pins), cleaned all surfaces and applied several coats of Ren Wax before sliding them back over the pins. It looks great now and I'll dig this thread up again if anything changes on that knife. I think the Ren Wax will hold. Thoughts?

I am ever the skeptic about stopping off gassing once the process has started.
I will be quite interested in how your experment goes. Good Luck, I hope it works!

[Elvis]

Just sound thinking on your part my friend. I'm just feeling optimistic about it.

[singin46]

I hope it works as well but have a bit of doubt. Once they go down that road, it gets nothing but ugly.

[RalphAlsip]

Does anyone know if Case Tested XX candy stripe handles are made from celluloid? Are they susceptible to outgassing?

Likewise, I would also be grateful to learn whether Case Tested Rough Black handles are susceptible to outgassing?

I have a couple of these that are currently in fine condition. Just trying to figure out how much risk I am putting on my natural handle knives that are in close proximity to my synthetic handle knives.

Many thanks.

[btrwtr]

If it is a vintage pre-1940 Tested knife it is celluloid. I have never seen rough black outgas. Don't think it does.

Wayne

[orvet]

If it is a vintage pre-1940 Tested knife it is celluloid. I have never seen rough black outgas. Don't think it does.

Wayne

Darker celluloids in general seem to be less prone to off-gasing, and lighter colors seem in general more prone to it.

[philco]

Darker celluloids in general seem to be less prone to off-gasing, and lighter colors seem in general more prone to it.[/quote]

I'll agree with that 100%. I have however noted that some of the scout knives I collect which have dark handles SHRINK terribly. They don't appear to give off any caustic gasses in the process but they sure look bad after the fact. I'm not sure what the material is that those handles are made of but I suspect it's different from celluloid.

[orvet]

Phil,
I think AAPK's own JerryD named it: "Shrinky Dink Plastic"

[RalphAlsip]

Here are pictures of the Case Tested Candy Stripe that I mentioned earlier. Please let me know if you see any preliminary evidence of outgassing. The backspring is immaculate with no visible imperfections. I don't see anything suspicious, but certainly don't want to make my other knives sick if this one is contagious.

Is it matter of "when" this will outgas? Or if it has made it this far is it unlikely that it will?

Should I keep this knife separated from my other knives?

Thanks for your interest and your advice.

[stockman]

Ralph, Really nice knife. Don't let it get away!!! It hasn't gassed yet it is old I would not worry but still
watch it.

Harold

[jlw257]

WOW, what beautiful old knife. $$$$

Larry

[orvet]

First; here is a good article on off-gassing- http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

Age of a knife is no indication that it will not off-gas. Many would say the opposite is true, the older the celluloid, the more likely it will break down at some point and begin the off-gassing process.

Keep a close eye on your celluloid knives and store them on an open shelf so that air can circulate around them. I even spoke to one collector who said he has a special display case made with a fan that pushed air in at the top of the case and out 2 or 3 holes at the bottom of the display case. If I had high dollar celluloid knives like he said he had, I would build a similar case.



Now, to address your knife:
1- How long have you owned it?
2- Have you ever cleaned it or polished it?
3- If it is a recent purchase & you have not cleaned it, I suspect someone has cleaned it in the past.

What makes me think that is the greenish discoloration between the bolsters and the handles. The handles seem to have pulled back from the bolsters slightly, indicating that the celluloid is shrinking; a common issue with celluloid. The term applied to Delrin is that it is “dimensionally stable,” meaning it does not shrink.

Celluloid is not dimensionally stable, so it is common to see shrinkage of old celluloid, however, the shrinking can be an indicator that that the celluloid is actively decomposing, which may mean it is getting ready to off-gas. If I had to put a number on the chances I would say it is 70-30; meaning a 70% chance it will off-gas before too many years. I base this on the number of off-gassing celluloid knives I have had through my shop. It can be deceptive though; sometimes with very little shrinkage, such as your knife, the knife can be eaten away inside from the gassing.


Now the greenish discoloration of between the celluloid & bolsters could be a bit of green polishing compound deposited in the gap, or it could be copper leached out of the nickel silver. Usually the sulfuric acid from the off-gassing turns the bolsters brown when it leaches the copper out of the nickel silver, but there are certain copper compounds with a greenish color IIRC from high school chemistry.

If you have had the knife for 40 years and never polished it, I suspect it is not in immediate danger of off-gassing, but one never knows. If its a knife you bought in the last few months, personally I would put it on a shelf (out of direct sunlight) where air can circulate around it and check it once a week at least. If you start seeing spotting on the blades, dulling on the bolsters or discoloration of the handles, I would immediately have the handles replaced.

There are 2 dark spots on those handles that concern me now; they are on both sides at the rocker (middle) pin. It may have been shadows from the camera angle, so check it and see if you can see the dark spots on the knife holding it in your hand. If they are there and not just shadows, then I would be concerned, if it were my knife.


I am not trying to scare you, just alert you to the issues surrounding celluloid.
I knew a fellow who had a brief case he used as a knife roll. It sealed up nicely and he could lock it. It was full of his nicest knives. A Remington celluloid suddenly began to off-gas; the next time he looked in the case (about a week since he had last had it open) that one celluloid knife had damaged most of the knives in the briefcase, even the non-celluloid knives. I think he put his loss in value to the knives at $2500. Some knives only had minor damage others were nearly destroyed.

Now you understand why many people won’t even own celluloid knives.

[RalphAlsip]

Harold and Larry thank you for the compliments! You have posted some beautiful pictures across the forums, too. Larry, your posts in "Newest Case Pick-Ups" have been spectacular over the past few months!

Dale, Many Thanks for the interest and taking the time to provide the helpful information. I read the Oregon Knife Collector document in an earlier post in this thread and that is what triggered my concern. My take-away from the article, and from your comments is to store and enjoy this knife in isolation from my other knives.

I got this knife as a 2013 Christmas present for myself so I have owned it for 4 months . It was obtained from a person that I hold in the highest trust and is a recognized authority in knife collecting. I have wiped it off a few times with a chamois cloth and oiled the joint. I have not used any type of cleaning or polishing agent on any part of the knife. It may have been polished with something in the past, but l don't believe it has ever been machine buffed. This is the only celluloid knife that I have and I bought it solely because of the great condition it is in. The previous owner shared some of the ownership history of the knife with me. It has changed hands only a few times during it's lifetime, and very few times over the past 40 years.

I attached some even more close up images of the knife. These pictures show a magnified and detailed view of the pins and seams between the bolsters and the celluloid. The pictures of the bolster seams show the greenish discoloration you noticed with cracks in the discoloration. The green line between the bolster and the handle is difficult to see with the naked eye. The cracks visible in the pictures cannot be seen with the naked eye. I have decent camera and a really good lens. I still have a microscope on my wishlist

Regarding the center rocker pin that is located in the Gold colored stripe... It does have an irregular shape, when compared to the other pins including its counterpart on the other side of the knife. I have a picture from when I acquired the knife 4 months ago that I compared to these taken today and it does not appear to have changed during the 4 months. Another thing I notice in the picture is that the light green line that separates the "stripes" in the knife is very straight and regular in all places on the knife except for right around this pin. These observations from the pictures are almost impossible to see with the naked eye.

The rocker pin on the other side (intersecting the green separator line and in the navy blue stripe) does not show anything unusual that I can see.

I intend to keep this knife in an isolated location sitting on a plastic stand on an airy shelf out of the sunlight.

Is it OK to put the celluloid in contact with the acrylic plastic in the knife stand?

Do these new pictures change your original diagnosis?

[jlw257]

Ralph I really like your Candy Stripe Big Coke , thank you for the kind words about my knives. Larry

[treefarmer]

A friend showed me his collection of knives that were all from relatives a couple of years ago. I noticed an old trapper pattern that had begun to outgas and told him he should isolate it from his other knives to avoid any problems.

Fast forward to this evening, while we were at Family Night Supper at church, he walks over and hands me the pitiful old Kabar. He said he knew he wouldn't do anything with it so he was giving it to me. Thanks, I think ! He said sorry about the blade being broken, with no explanation how it got broken , it's a recent break . But since it is such a good example of one out gassing, I thought I would post a few pictures before I remove the old celluloid handles. This old knife still has plenty of "walk and talk" even if it is a little crippled and slurs a few words .
Treefarmer

Edit: went ahead and remove the old scales, this is just plain sad .

[RalphAlsip]

This is a vintage Remington with pyremite handles. Please note the discoloration in the center pin on the back handle. Is this evidence of off gassing? It is a beautiful knife otherwise. Silverladdie has this listed on eBay. I can't paste the link with my iPad.

[btrwtr]

I have a Remington stockman that had this red celluloid on it. The celluloid shrunk and I took it off the knife. It never outgassed to the point of corroding the metal, just shrunk up.

Here is the link for the Remington cattle knife.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remington-UMC-C ... 5d55779f22

Wayne

[philco]

This is a vintage Remington with pyremite handles. Please note the discoloration in the center pin on the back handle. Is this evidence of off gassing?

I'm far from an expert on outgassing celluloid but it sure looks like something has corroded that center pin. I would be very leary of that knife.

[orvet]

The spotting on the blade could be further evidence of off-gassing, though not necessarily, other things can cause that as well.

Does it bother anyone else besides me that a knife that is supposed to be between 76 to 95 years old looks so new? Seller does not state the knife has been cleaned.

[knife7knut]

Here are a couple of pictures of the Buck Creek lockback I had mentioned earlier.Although the knife appears fine in the picture the corrosion was working under the scale to the point that it corroded the liner and when the lock was activated snapped the knife in two pieces.Note the minimal amount of corrosion to the blade and virtually no deterioration of the scale on the outside.

[tvic]

So here’s a John Primble Belknap that I think is from the 1960s in What I felt was pretty darned good condition. However is the pulling away from the bolsters and the little bit of spots on the blades a sign of outgassing?

[edge213]

So here’s a John Primble Belknap that I think is from the 1960s in What I felt was pretty darned good condition. However is the pulling away from the bolsters and the little bit of spots on the blades a sign of outgassing?

This knife does not appear to be outgassing at this time.