Stag Handle Marbles knives

[btrwtr]

A good number of years ago I became all too aware of a problem with Marble's fixed blade knives. The problem was that many of the knives that had leather washer handles with aluminum butt caps were being rehandled with either full stag handles or with just stag butt caps. Just like many other knives, no matter whether fixed or folding, stag commands a premium and people have tried to take advantage of this by removing the old leather washers and aluminum or bakelite caps and replacing them with new stag. This has been going on for some time and continues as I am writing this.

That said it is one thing to rehandle the knife but quite another to capture the correct form, color and patina that the real deal stag knives have. Most Marbles stag handles and caps acquire a beautiful golden yellow color with age that is very hard to duplicate. You can also expect to see some greening from verdigris where the stag has contacted the brass and copper components of either the handle or sheath. Handles that are constructed with a hidden threaded end tang and tightening barrel nut do become loose over time and it is not uncommon to see caps that have become loose or show signs of tightening and adjusting of the barrel nut.

You should not see stag that is either too white or too dark or that has noticeably contrasting color. Coloring and aging of the stag should be consistent with the age and wear on the knife. Many times "bad" stag will be torch burned or dyed with potassium permanganate in an attempt to duplicate the correct look of aged stag. With some attention these methods are normally rather easy to spot. You should also not see obvious file marks or scratching from abrasive belts. Handle spacers should be stacked symmetrically at each end of the stag. Look at the pin placement on older pinned stag knives and check for location and perpendicular alignment of the pins through the handles.

If you like the old Marble's knives like I do take care to look at any stag and be sure it is correct for the knife before putting down your hard earned cash.

Here are a few examples of some bad and good Marbles stag handles. Note the size, color, shaping and scarring on the dyed butt caps. You will see the same tell tale signs on replaced tube stag handles as well. I have noticed that some eBay sellers find it difficult to sell a Marble's knife that isn't stag. There must be a big stockpile of original leather and aluminum components out there somewhere.

Wayne

[philco]

Wayne thank you for a very detailed and informative post.

[knife-nut]

I ran across this website and thought you guys might be interested. They have leather washers for marbles knives. http://gladstonemfg.com/

[Lawrence]

Great post bt.... I learned something new today, and probably would have been taken before reading this. I'll have a keener eye in the future. cheers

[1967redrider]

These pictures are from Arni Dunathan's 2005 book, The Encyclopedia of Marble's Knives & Sporting Collectibles. I strongly suggest anyone seriously collecting anything Marble's to pick this up, read it, study it, and keep it on hand for quick reference. 172 pages with mostly color pictures, I've found it to be worth way more than its cost, a very valuable resource. With all of the outdoors products Webster L. Marble devised or had made, it's hard to keep track of everything without this reference book.

[stagman]

Great topic and better still, a gorgeous group of vintage Marble's knives....
However, the white stag you speak of was used on virtually all of Marble's
knives during the Stewart era from 1997-2001 and beyond thru 2008
The white color of all the above mentioned peroids stag was not counterfit...
these knives from 1997 to 2005 were all made right at the old Gladstone factory...
the color of the stag just happen to be of a white variety,
so some folk's may be trying to pull a fast one, the color of the stag has
no bearing on genuine Marble's Gladstone Michigan made knives.......
Stag

[btrwtr]

Great topic and better still, a gorgeous group of vintage Marble's knives....
However, the white stag you speak of was used on virtually all of Marble's
knives during the Stewart era from 1997-2001 and beyond thru 2008
The white color of all the above mentioned peroids stag was not counterfit...
these knives from 1997 to 2005 were all made right at the old Gladstone factory...
the color of the stag just happen to be of a white variety,
so some folk's may be trying to pull a fast one, the color of the stag has
no bearing on genuine Marble's Gladstone Michigan made knives.......
Stag

I should have made myself more clear in that I was specifically relating to the old original Marble's knives made up until the renaming of the patterns in the 1960's. That is where my interest is. I know very little about the knives made after that period.

Wayne

[stagman]

I got ya Wayne, when I read the post to watch out for any white color
stag as it could be counterfeit, I had to respond as Marble's made em in white color for for 10 yrs..
As you say, you cannot beat that old golden color of stag on Marble's
knives, as well as Case knives of the 1960's, just gorgeous color !!!
Nice group of knives you have pictured as well, sure Redrider is salivating
a bit, as he is a Marble's fan too. You should if you have a chance, pick up
and handle some of the 1998-2001 knives, I truly believe in that short span
they were some of the best quality, blade steel, etc. that Marble's ever made !!!
Will

[btrwtr]

I have noticed that some eBay sellers find it difficult to sell a Marble's knife that isn't stag. There must be a big stockpile of original leather and aluminum components out there somewhere.

Wayne[/quote]

This is the fifth batch of Marble's aluminum pommels this seller has listed. Coincidentally the first four knives pictured in this post were listed by the same seller. I don't recall this seller ever listing a Marble's knife that didn't have a stag pommel. Not too hard to figure out what is going on here is it?

Wayne

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marbles-MSA-Ant ... 3f3a6cd62e

[coffeecup]

That said it is one thing to rehandle the knife but quite another to capture the correct form, color and patina that the real deal stag knives have. Most Marbles stag handles and caps acquire a beautiful golden yellow color with age that is very hard to duplicate. You can also expect to see some greening from verdigris where the stag has contacted the brass and copper components of either the handle or sheath. Handles that are constructed with a hidden threaded end tang and tightening barrel nut do become loose over time and it is not uncommon to see caps that have become loose or show signs of tightening and adjusting of the barrel nut.

With a couple hours work,spread out over 3-4 weeks while the chems work, the color of old stag--including Marble's--is relatively easy to duplicate. Guys have been faking stag grips for Colt SAAs for two generations, and in certain circles it is down to a science. Faking of verdigris and green staining is even easier to do, that is just antique resto tricks. (Not that I've ever faked a Marbles, but to say it shouldn't be difficult.)

[btrwtr]

That said it is one thing to rehandle the knife but quite another to capture the correct form, color and patina that the real deal stag knives have. Most Marbles stag handles and caps acquire a beautiful golden yellow color with age that is very hard to duplicate. You can also expect to see some greening from verdigris where the stag has contacted the brass and copper components of either the handle or sheath. Handles that are constructed with a hidden threaded end tang and tightening barrel nut do become loose over time and it is not uncommon to see caps that have become loose or show signs of tightening and adjusting of the barrel nut.

With a couple hours work,spread out over 3-4 weeks while the chems work, the color of old stag--including Marble's--is relatively easy to duplicate. Guys have been faking stag grips for Colt SAAs for two generations, and in certain circles it is down to a science. Faking of verdigris and green staining is even easier to do, that is just antique resto tricks. (Not that I've ever faked a Marbles, but to say it shouldn't be difficult.)

I think it is very easy to put fake stag grips on a Marble's knife that was originally leather and aluminum, you see it all too often. I do not think it is easy to duplicate a Marble's stag handle, or any other old knife handle for that matter, to the point that it can't be detected. Not saying it can't be done, just saying it's not an easy thing to do.

Wayne

[coffeecup]

I think it is very easy to put fake stag grips on a Marble's knife that was originally leather and aluminum, you see it all too often. I do not think it is easy to duplicate a Marble's stag handle, or any other old knife handle for that matter, to the point that it can't be detected. Not saying it can't be done, just saying it's not an easy thing to do.

Wayne

It isn't particularly difficult if you know what you are doing. The guys doing most of the fakes now entering the market don't. They are salvaging knives with rotted leather handles: it is easier for them to do a stag handle than to rebuild a leather handle. The guys doing these are taking a $10-25 knife, and building it up to the point where it might bring $100 (which, after ebay and paypal take their cut, is closer to $70). They are cutting corners on materials, trying to re-use spacers and barrel nuts, and generally doing a poor job of it, in hope of making a profit (or at least breaking even).

You don't see well-done fakes of most Marbles knives on ebay, for that reason. To do the job right, every part from the hilt to the barrel nut needs to be replaced. The correct materials have to be sourced (including the correct "rubbery" material for the spacers). Before you can start the "aging" process, you have about 4-6 hours of work invested, and $50-100 in materials. Figure another 2 hours work and $20-30 to do the "aging". Taking middle-range numbers and working cheap, it costs about $240 to do a good job of faking a stag-on-stag handle. When it is done, it would take detailed scientific examination to show it wasn't original.

Economics would indicate that you won't see a well-done fake on a Marbles that sells on ebay for less than about $300, and the likelihood would increase with the price. A stag-on-stag Ideal that looks good is probably OK, but I wouldn't buy a high-dollar (>$400) Marbles on ebay without an approval period, no matter who the seller was, or how good the pics look. The risk is just too great.

Three reasons why I say that. I've seen 2 Trailmakers with rotted handles sell for around $100 each; done up as (fake) stag-on-stag, they would bring >$1,000. A Dall Deweese with missing scales sold for $140; with new (faked) scales it would bring >$1,200.