The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo Knife

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The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo Knife

Post by reddirtknives »

::super_happy:: I don't think this thing has ever been sharpened other than at the factory. I had a 4 line Camillus just like it about 6 months ago but sold it for $25. The spoon on the Camillus was like chrome plated or something and it looked like they had been eating some caustic soup with it. Do any of you fellas have one of these? Show some pics ::tu::
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It's a hobo
It's a hobo
Nice Clean Spoon
Nice Clean Spoon
WOW! Look At That Blade
WOW! Look At That Blade
HET!
HET!
It's a Holley
It's a Holley
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by carrmillus »

..........rdk, that's a beautiful knife!!...I have one of the old 4 line Camillus's, but it looks like it went thru ww1!!!!................... ::tu:: ................
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by coffeecup »

DJ, no photos handy (will try over the weekend), but I've got one with the spoon removed as my large EDC. This is the "Red Cross" knife provided to troops as part of a "Christmas package" during WWI. It was a colossal misunderstanding, but knifemakers needed the business so they cranked them out. . . .

On the ones I've seen in near-new condition, the spoons were tin plated (probably stamped from tin-plated sheet). Tin has no objectionable taste, while iron/steel will taint the taste of some foods, so are usually plated with something. That was probably what you saw peeling on the Camillus.
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

Thanks Carmillus :)
coffeecake ::woot:: You confused me again. I read 5 times and well. Was your spoon taken out by the army before handing them out or the knife Co's or the red cross or did you take off the spoon on yours??? What was the misunderstading? It sounds like a million of these were probably made. This knife here was in even better condition a few days ago but the fella who had it on a display out in his garage cut the wire it was hanging by with some dull scissors and when they wouldn't cut he started twisting it :shock: trust me, I tried to stop him about 5 times but he was on a mission. Every bit of the damage other than rust specks was done during the unmounting ::facepalm::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by glennbad »

That's a beauty of a knife!
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by knife7knut »

Here is mine
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by junebug »

AWESOME KNIFE TATER!!!!!!

NAWW NEVER REALLY WANTED A SPOON ON A KNIFE.......BUT BOY HOWDY ALWAYS WANTED A "HOLLEY" KNIFE!
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by FRJ »

What an awesome beautiful Holly that is. You don't usually find Hollys in that condition.

Knife7knut, who made your slot knife?
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

HEHE Juniper Berries, Your the type of guy who would have removed the spoon and then complained about it in the soup line ::woot:: ::woot:: ::woot::
Is this thing called a slot knife? I'm guessing a Hobo has to come apart? Or is it just another name for it? I think K7K is showing his 4 line Camillus Hobo. It's in way better shape than the one I had. Very cool ::tu:: I think Holley Hobo has a nice ring to it :) Huh Junie ::woot::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by knife7knut »

FRJ wrote:What an awesome beautiful Holly that is. You don't usually find Hollys in that condition.

Knife7knut, who made your slot knife?
Not a slot knife but the same as red dirt's Holley except that it is a 4-lone Camillus.Typically in unused condition as most are. I got it years ago;don't recall what I paid for it but it wasn't much.
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

If your thinking about loning it Josh might need it hehe just trying to make a funny but they seldom are ::undecided::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

But But But... ::teary_eyes:: But, DATS NOT A HOLLEY HOBO ::facepalm:: @ the post that flew away and vanished into thin air like some sort of forum magic ::shrug::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by coffeecup »

reddirtknives wrote:Thanks Carmillus :)
coffeecake ::woot:: You confused me again. I read 5 times and well. Was your spoon taken out by the army before handing them out or the knife Co's or the red cross or did you take off the spoon on yours???
As others have pointed out, the knife is near impossible to carry in a pocket due to the spoon. Some of the WWI vets I knew back in the '70s had taken their knives and cut the spoon off with a cold chisel. The guy who showed me how to do it opened the spoon, laid it on an anvil, and cut right across the part of the spoon that passes through the handle. Then the stub was closed, and you had a big pocket knife.
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by carrmillus »

..rdk,as I said, my 2 function hobo is not worth taking pictures of, but I also have one of the 3 function, take-apart 4 line Camillus's that is near mint-there are pictures posted by orvet for me somewhere in the Camillus forum............... ::tu:: .............
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by FRJ »

Thanks knife7knut. I think these knives are neat. I don't own one. I don't know where I came up with slot knife. I may have copied someone using the term (always dangerous). Can you tell me what a slot knife is. Thank you.
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

MY GUESS IS THAT A SLOT KNIFE WOULD BE THE HOBO'S THAT YOU CAN TAKE APART AND PUT TOGETHER EASILY USING THE (SLOT AND KEY?) TABS THAT FIT INTO THE SLOT AND THEN SLID TO LOCK IN PLACE TOGETHER. JUST A GUESS THOUGH WITH NO RESEARCH DONE.
COFFEECUP SIR. WHAT WAS THE "COLOSSAL MISUNDERSTANDING? AND DO YOU HAVE REFERENCE TO THEM BEING PART OF A XMAS PACKAGE? ALSO, WERE ALL OF THESE WHAT YOU REFERRED TO AS THE "RED CROSS" KNIVES? MY THOUGHTS ON THESE ARE THAT THEY WERE STILL A LOT SMALLER AND MORE CARRY/POCKET FRIENDLY THAN THE HUMONGOUS SPOON AND KNIFE THAT CAME IN THE WW2 MESS KITS... VERY COOL IF YOU MADE IT HOME WITH ONE TO CUT THE SPOON OFF OF FOR A USER HUH? EXTRA SPECIAL I WOULD SAY :)
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

I think Holley and Landers, Frary & Clark actually made these during the American Civil War, although I do not think the knife in the OP is anywhere near that old.

It is a beautiful example, however.

BTW; I think some of the spoons on these type knives were zinc plated. I don't know why. Maybe that accounts for their appearance all these years later.

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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by coffeecup »

OK, dug the knife out of the truck and shot some pics on the back steps. (Yes, I do need to clean the knife up again.) If you click on the pics, you can see how the spoon tang was cut to be contained within the pile-side cover.
7396

7394

7395


Spoons were cut off both in both France during the war, and in the post-war period. I was told by a number of WWI vets that they just went to the farrier--there was usually one near the front lines--and had the spoon cut off. As it was demonstrated to me my a man who spent WWI as a farrier in France, it took about 5 seconds. (I found it interesting that 60 years after the war, he was still doing this occasionally.) Several of the WWI vets I knew as a child carried these.

Artifactual documentation of the practice during the war has been found in the form of a spoonless knife found in the pocket of a body buried in one of the mass graves recently uncovered.

(Over the years, I've sometimes wondered if they cut off the spoons to make the knives more pocketable, or if it was done so you could hold onto the knife in order to use it. That spoon just gets in the way when doing the kind of jobs a knife this size is suited to. Unless, of course, you have hands like a spider monkey, in which case it might be OK.)

The story goes that in 1917, at a fund raiser, the head of the American Red Cross asked a general what kind of pocketknife to include in the gift packs being prepared for the soldiers in France. The general replied to the effect that it wasn't necessary, as all soldiers were being issued a knife and spoon. The gentleman from the Red Cross (variously described as "hard of hearing" or "half-deaf") understood the general to say "a knife with a spoon." The source of the story is usually cited as American Cutler magazine.

The design was developed in 1917, for distribution in the 1917 Christmas packages for soldiers (and sailors, according to some accounts). There seems to be no evidence that they were produced for anyone other than the Red Cross, or after the Red Cross orders were filled. Production may have continued into 1918 to finish contracts, but no evidence of this has been found. This is one of those rare knives that can be dated quite tightly, and (aside from government contracts) for whom the original contractor is known.

Total production seems to have ranged between 500,000-1,000,000 but may have reached 2,000,000. At least 500,000 were produced: contemporary documents mention this number as having been produced but more orders may have been outstanding. One million is the commonly-mentioned production figure, but the original plan was to make two million. One million were intended for US troops (and possibly sailors), and the second million for our loyal allies, the Russian army.

(Anyone who knows their history will see the problem here. The Red Cross began planning in mid-1917; the Bolshevik takeover in November 1917 lead to a separate armistice with the Central Powers in December 1917. Our "loyal allies" were proven to be neither. I've not been able to find out if contracts were cancelled, if a million of these knives were dumped on the market sometime after the war, or if maybe the Red Cross has a million of these knives tucked away somewhere . . . . )

Makers included Camillus, Ulster, Holley, Union Cutlery, and probably others. Per a post from Tom Williams in another forum, Camillus produced around 100,000 of these. The Camillus model # was 9511. I've not been able find information from the other makers.

Jim
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

HUH? WHAT? Oh, Your wife is a loon... ::uc:: I guess any ole pocketknife will do then... ::woot:: And had he heard it that way there wouldn't have been 2,000,000 goofy big spoon knives ordered and at least 500,000 made just to have a cancelled order and the others probably stripped down for the blades... Great story regardless of how true...

Thanks coffeecup, you came through again ::tu:: and I love that you are such a stickler for details... So, if Mr. Williams's researched information is reliable my Holley (Big Mistake) spoon knife was only made in the year 1917 and since they are so rare probably the latter part of the year right before the contract was cancelled? Who knows but all of this information just made this knife (regardless who made them) a whole lot more interesting. I kinda wish I would have held onto my 4 line Camillus version. With that kind of story/history attached to this knife I can't believe that it hasn't been given a name or several names for that matter like The Red Crossed Sh!# Shovel Knife or something relating to a big freaking stupid Christmas mistake. ::woot:: LOLOLOL I love it... Thanks again Coffeecakes ::tu::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by reddirtknives »

carrmillus wrote:..rdk,as I said, my 2 function hobo is not worth taking pictures of, but I also have one of the 3 function, take-apart 4 line Camillus's that is near mint-there are pictures posted by orvet for me somewhere in the Camillus forum............... ::tu:: .............
Those are awesome, I have a friend who has one near mint as well. They are some big ole suckers. He got his at an Antique mall which his friend told him about. His friend was a knife guy as well and he asked his friend why don't you want to buy it and he said because I don't like delrin ::woot:: . So off he went to the dealer and asked how much and the dealer said $30...SOLD! He took it back and showed his buddy the knife saying I can't believe you didn't want to buy this thing, look... It's bone... And it comes apart... We giggle everytime we see it. I don't think his buddy was on top of his game that day but hey, it happens to the best of us sometimes... I'm not even going to get into my list of the ones that got away... ::teary_eyes::
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Re: EVER FIND YOURSELF WANTING ONE OF THESE? GOTTA BE WORTH

Post by big monk »

FRJ wrote:Thanks knife7knut. I think these knives are neat. I don't own one. I don't know where I came up with slot knife. I may have copied someone using the term (always dangerous). Can you tell me what a slot knife is. Thank you.
Here is a ""Slot Knife"" that I have__also called a "'Hobo""__name came from the ""slots"" to slide a-part__this one was made by Union Cut. Co. (early 1900's) ::tu::
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Re: The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo K

Post by reddirtknives »

Awesome Awesome Awesome example Monk ::tu::
I found more info here http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... oss-knife/
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Re: The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo K

Post by FRJ »

Reddirtknives and Monk,
thanks for getting me straight on the slot knife.
It makes perfect sense now.
That is a beautiful knife, Monk.
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Re: The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo K

Post by RobesonsRme.com »

That three piece Union is a beautiful knife, but I'm not at all sure you have assembled it correctly. I don't think I've ever noticed one of these with the knife blade opening out of the bottom of the assembled frame like that.

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Re: The Red Cross Holley & Camillus Big Mistake Xmass Hobo K

Post by carrmillus »

....all three blades on my Camillus open to the top side!!.............. ::tu:: ...........
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