Expectations for factory service?

[coffeecup]

Got a question for y'all. What is reasonable to expect from a factory when you contact them about returning a new knife with a defect, or when you return the knife? Here's why I'm asking:

Bright and early this morning (about 2:15 AM) I got a rather abusive and profane phone call from an individual who had apparently just discovered my previous mention of new knife I had problems with. In between the namecalling and profanities, I was told that I'm "unAmerican" and "should have given the factory a chance."

I thought I had "given the factory a chance," and that after two attempts to contact them (with no response), and sending the knife back and waiting three months (and the knife not even being unwrapped), it was obvious that they weren't going to do anything.

Was I wrong?

[wazu013]

I would love to know who the factory is. PM me if you would.
Thanks,

[Cutty]

Not sure I completely follow the story or time line?

If you buy a new knife and there is a factory defect, on a knife carrying a warranty. The factory should fix the problem or send you a replacement. No questions asked! as long as the problem is covered under said warranty.

How long it should take to get the knife back??? I know with case it has been a month, give or take and Bear & Son was about the same amount of time, in my experience.

[tjmurphy]

A phone call at 2:15 AM?? Now that's un-American, not to mention the name calling. When I order/purchase a quality/high dollar (to me) item I expect a first quality item with no defects and am Pi$$ed when I don't get that. I feel that two weeks is a reasonable time frame, from the time they receive it till it's back in your hands, for a repair/replacement. That's why I buy old stuff where blade rub and scratches are expected. Tired of being disappointed. Was this guy an AAPK member?

[junebug]

you DID NOTHING WRONG its still AMERICA and you can do what you want with YOUR knife....

that said i have had had HORRIBLE service from CASE KNIVES (A COUPLE TIMES) THEY SUCK YES THIS IS MY OPINION AND TOO BAD IF YA DONT LIKE IT!! WILL NEVER USE THEM AGAIN, CUZ I DONT HAVE TO! HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SERVICE! ............ AGAIN THE WORST!!!
(BOTH I HAVE SENT BACK TO CASE XX WERE BRAND NEW IN BOX,NO EXCUSES.....the last knife i tried 2 times)

victorinox,wenger,kershaw all have been ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT I EXPECTED EVERY SINGLE TIME!

ALL FOUR OF THE COMPANIES I MENTIONED, I HAVE USED THEIR SERVICES "THIS YEAR", so this is UP TO DATE INFO , ON MY END

the ol MIGHTY dollar has confused some companies IMO......THEY forget THE BUYERS have gotten them to were they are..........and it wasn't by screwin a guy out of his WARRENTY

sorry for RANT.........
sorry if my opinion offends anyone......just one guy in a SEA of collectors

[Jody744]

Tell us how you really feel, jb
Cc, could i get the same pm as requested?
I treat knives like anything else, including dining out.
My money is too hard to come by to settle for something
I know i wont be happy with. The last issue i had was with
a particular ebony handled knife, got 2 diff patterns.
1st came, no issues. 2nd came, wondered how it made it
past qc? Sent to manufacturer with list of issues, got replacement
no problem. I have gotten to the point i only want to buy at
shows now, with product in hand to look over. I saw a new
queen coke bottle at dalton show that was hot, but will wait
to see one at blade to buy.

[junebug]

SORRY GUYS. ......hate to see a friend gettin JOCKED around,...OR MYSELF

and you said it best jody : My money is too hard to come by to settle for something
I know i wont be happy with.

( INCLUDING CUSTOMER SERVICE TO ME.......)

BEST OF LUCK COFFEECUP

[Cutty]

When I get one that's bad it pisses me off Royally but the couple of times that it happened it was resolved.

If I received a phone call at 2:15 a.m. I would be on the phone calling the co. until I talked to someone with enough power to make me happy and if possible fire who ever called me.

I would also be on here publicly naming the co., running them down and warning everyone about what happened.

You sir are more reserved than I would be

[coffeecup]

Guys, I'm not sure naming the company would do anything good--there have been problems discussed with most companies at one time or another, and frankly I don't want to bother with any more folks feeling the need to make personal attacks. I'm more interested in what other folks think it is reasonable to expect from a factory when there is a problem.

Cutty, the timeline. Last year I bought a knife. Should have been a good one--came from the maker's premium line and the cost was >$100. Knife had a blade that was so loose it rattled when opened, and was almost as bad closed. Using the information on their website, I sent the manufacturer an email explaining the problem and asking how to return it for inspection/warranty/etc. No response after a week, so I sent it again. No response after a week, so I dug around online and found their warranty/repair address. I wrapped the knife in bubble wrap, taped a note to the bubblewrap explaining the problem, and mailed it off. Three months later the knife was returned. The note had never been opened, the knife had never been unwrapped.

Since the manufacturer obviously didn't care, I knocked the knife apart to see what was wrong--the blade tang was .010" thinner than the spring. Back in February I wrote about it here http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 37&t=35239 and mentioned it again in the "Golden Age of US Cutlery" thread in Knife Lore. The guy who called me had apparently just discovered my comments, and decided it was time to yell at me again. Or maybe he had a bad day, I don't know. I have no reason to believe he has any official connection with the manufacturer of this knife.

Tjmurphy, the sad thing is that I was not surprised by the poor quality, or the factory's response/lack thereof. I hoped for better, but you know how things go sometimes. And I wasn't surprised (much) by the phone call. This guy has been calling me for more than 2 years, and seems to think I was again "attacking" his favorite maker. He's not the first person to do so, so what the heck.

So back to my questions, if we could.
1) I made two attempts to contact the manufacturer via email, waiting a week between each attempt. Did this give the manufacturer an adequate opportunity to respond?

2) When I didn't receive a response, I mailed the knife to the factory with a note of explanation, asking to have the knife repaired or replaced. By doing so, can I fairly say I "gave the factory a chance" to correct the defect? And if not, what should I have done?

[reddirtknives]

Wow, Sorry to hear about your recent experience coffeecup. I think you gave reasonable time for them to respond 3 times in a row and as cutty mentioned you were more reserved than I would say 70% of people would have been. I think Mr. Murphy's problem solved in 2 weeks time is a bit much to ask for (no offense Sir.) but a response via telephone within 8 days of shipping it to them should have been within any American Co.'s reach provided it wasn't lost in the mail or lost within the Co. itself. This gives 3-4 days to get to them, 1-2 days to be sorted in receiving and delivered to the proper department and another 2-3 days for them to contact you making up for a weekend or holiday. Reasonable time? Okay give them a 9th day for any other problem that may come up. I mean it's just a phone call after reading a descriptive message of issues with a newly purchased knife. It sounds like you are dealing with a company who is so independent that they don't need you as a customer and can absorb any lost customers via word of mouth who's minds may have been persuaded by this. Again too reserved perhaps. Customer satisfaction should be any manufacturers #1 goal for fear of losing their business and then the domino effect from word of mouth. I'm a firm believer in knife in hand purchasing if you can't afford to gamble but hey I still buy off of skeeterbay (yep there are many blood/money suckers in that swamp) and have been burned along the way. I still find it more fun and cheaper than going to the casino and I have hit jackpots a few times. I get the feeling that their technique was a very rude and uncaring way of saying send it back to the dealer/place of purchase. Which should have been said within 2 days via an email the first time you wrote them. Now you've paid shipping, they've wasted their time and had to pay shipping, (sorry cupcake but your time doesn't count ) the problem has gone from bad to disastrous and now we are all talking about it and your getting harassed at 2 am and yada yada yada I could go on. The bottom line is your not happy and it's like they are holding your hard earned money and waving it at you in an act of mockery. I bet I could name this company in 2 notes. Did you try to contact via telephone? Company with no tele number = no good and that would rule one company I was thinking out. Oops Just reread this "Using the information on their website, I sent the manufacturer an email explaining the problem and asking how to return it for inspection/warranty/etc. No response after a week, so I sent it again. No response after a week, so I dug around online and found their warranty/repair address." Did you buy this knife over the interweb from a dealer? Did the dealer direct you to them or did you not want to cause any trouble for the poor dealer? Factory Direct? Sometimes Dealers cause their customers and themselves tons of trouble by demanding X from manufacturer and either not inspecting every knife before filling THEIR customers orders and sending knives back themselves or may have a rocky relation with Co. to where they leave it to you to get it fixed in an attempt to show the Co. that they are receiving sub-par merchandise. I don't know the situation so I'll leave it there because I could go on... It sounds like your either caught in the middle of 2 businesses that don't need your business or only one, the manufacturer. I think you have been too patient and too reasonable and you should TELL THE WORLD at this point. You are too smart for this so I'm thinking Video camera, brief explanation of your experience ON video,Camera rolling while tearing into it to find what they did wrong, Brief explanation again this time on what they did wrong in the build and what they COULD have done to either fix it or make you happy but chose to do neither. MAKE WAVES, MOVE AND SHAKE, upload onto youtube as a review on both their high end line and their customer service and then fix it yourself (on video ) and BILL the manufacturer $45 per shop hour. Tell them since they won't honor their own warranty you had to fix yourself and your time is EXPENSIVE And here's my bill with a copy of video (or link to online video) and that there will be a follow up video if you are not paid for your shop time. This should make your 2am phone buddy go away forever due to SHAME. Or have a Friend do the youtube video if that is not YOUR thing...How many times have you been to say umm... Example, Taco Bell drive thru and paid goood money to feed the family and everything was crap shells all broken on tacos that are alll lettuce with no cheese etc? Not to mention they didn't put one napkin in the bag... They assume you won't drive back to complain. I have yeah they see you in line with the bag in hand and act like your not there yep your waiting in line because you were already burned and the people in front they now have a shot at pleasing. I'll say this, That manager wants to remake your order so bad he almost begs but NOPE !!! Money back and your supervisors phone # please Perhaps you should send it back requesting a full refund and either stop buying that brand or stop buying from that dealer because it's one or the other. And as long as people will eat broken lettuce tacos with no meat and a couple strands of cheese without demanding money back guess what? They are going to keep giving it to you just like that because manager is praised by supervisors and gets bonuses for having low food costs. I found it best to eat inside where I can show it to them (like buying a knife on the showroom floor and seeing it before paying) but now I do not and will not eat there again.Not to mention the Heartburn and horse meat, maybe it's best that they ARE mostly lettuce... But a top of the line knife already paid for should be almost instantly made right... GOODLUCK COFFEECUP

[whitebuffalo58]

I wouldn't have given up that easy, i'd have stayed on them until they honored their commitment, period. Now that you've disassembled the knife yourself, there's no hope of getting a factory repair and they've dodged their responsibility.
As far as the 2 a.m. caller, all I can say is that if it were me? He'd better hope I never find out who and where he is. That's absolute nonsense and I guarantee i'd put an end to that crap once and for all!!

WB

[MyDogsHunt]

Unfortunately in today's world most manufacturers will spend more time and expense dodging their responsibilities so I seldom bother with the frustration but I recently bought a KOA caping knife that had ill-fitting handles so I took a chance and sent them a quick e-mail describing the problems with the knife.
Sent it on a Sunday and sure enough, I got a reply bright and early Monday morning with a heart felt apology and an electronic UPS return label.
Well I printed the label, packed it up and dropped it off at our local UPS center last week.
Here's the e-mail I received Monday.

"" Good Morning Mr. Benson,

I received your Cub Bear yesterday afternoon. A new knife is being returned to you today. This is the UPS tracking# 1Z752E010295588541. You will get a message from UPS that says the shipment has been cancelled. Please disregard that notice. I wanted to send it to you 2nd day so I voided the first UPS label.

The General Manager and the Production Manager now has the knife you sent in. They will be handling the QC issues with the employees. They both inspected the new Cub Bear, it is very sharp and the handle is correct. Our apologies for all your trouble. If there is anything else we can do just contact us and we will be very glad to do what we can to help.

Thank you,
Debbie Carpenter
Knives of Alaska
3100 Airport Drive
Denison, TX 75020 ""

I thought her decision to send the new knife second day really showed allot of class.

Now THIS is what I would expect from any vendor of any product, but I won't hold my breath since IME it's the exception these days.
Still a nice change of pace though.
Charlie

[jerryd6818]

I've had experience with only three manufacturers, Bear & Son, Buck and Kershaw. Kershaw and Buck gave me great customer service and no hassles. I got good customer service from Bear & Son but I had to pry it out of them (once I talked to the head honcho instead of an employee, things went very smoothly).


Charlie -- I'll be filing away your A+ experience with Knives Of Alaska in the back of my mind. Thanks for posting a positive encounter with their customer service.

[philco]

A couple of years ago, maybe three or four, I bought a used SOG lockback knife on ebay. When it arrived I discovered the locking mechanism did not work and the blade closed with only a moderate amount of pressure. I contacted the seller who told me to just throw the knife away and then issued a refund.

Well I'm not one to throw away a knife, even one with "issues" so I contacted the folks at SOG and they told to mail it to them. I did and in a week or so I received a brand new, in the box, replacement for the malfunctioning one, no questions asked. THAT is what I call customer service !

[Jody744]

The suspense is wearing me out!!!!!

[coffeecup]

As far as I'm concerned, the factory "dodged their responsibility" when the knife left the factory, when they didn't respond to the emails, and when they didn't fix or replace the knife. It looks to me like they had no intention of standing behind their work or their "warranty." But I'm not able to be objective about it, hence my original questions.

Over the past five years I've dealt with the customer service departments of five companies; the lack of response from this company is not unusual in my experience. The late night caller is a bit extreme, but arguments from fan-boys that someone with a problem knife should "give the factory a chance to fix it" are not uncommon no matter how many attempts have been made to deal with the factory.

Frankly, I find it rather telling that none of our members who are dealers, or who are employed in various management roles by knifemakers, have responded to this thread. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just trying to determine if my expectations of customer service are unreasonable.

I've always assumed (and yes, I know what that means) that the companies would actually want to fix their mistakes and make customers happy so they'd become repeat customers. That doesn't seem to be the case. Any more, it seems that all too often you have to make multiple attempts to contact someone, and often have to know the "right person" to contact outside the customer service department in order to accomplish anything.

[Miller Bro's]

Jim,

Why don`t you post in this thread who the manufacturer is?

I see no harm in exposing the company that did this.

[junebug]

quote coffeecup: Guys, I'm not sure naming the company would do anything good--there have been problems discussed with most companies at one time or another, and frankly I don't want to bother with any more folks feeling the need to make personal attacks. I'm more interested in what other folks think it is reasonable to expect from a factory when there is a problem.


quote millerbros: Why don`t you post in this thread who the manufacturer is?

I see no harm in exposing the company that did this.



i dont see how NOT NAMING the company does AAPK/FELLOW COLLECTORS ANY GOOD???????

AND YES I AM THE ONE WHO NAMED "CASE KNIVES" ...AND IN NO WAY WAS IT A PERSONAL ATTACK!!!!!! IT IS "FACT".....THEY CHOOSE HOW TO HANDLE SITUATIONS AS A COMPANY!!!!!!!!!
IN MY OPINION IT IS MORE BENEFICIAL TO CALL COMPANIES OUT TO FELLOW COLLECTORS/FRIENDS..
TO EACH HIS OWN..................GOOD LUCK
like SO MANY HERE HAVE TOLD MYSELF AND OTHERS............MAKE WAVES OR CHALK IT UP AS A LOSS.........................................

side note: and on DEALER AGENTS (NOT FACTORY): THEY SHOULD BE HELD AT SAME LEVEL AS THE FACTORY!!!!!!! JUST GO CHECK THE GEC THREAD!!!!! HOW MANY COLLECTORS HAVE WE LOST THEIR DUE TO "DEALERS" ...... SEE THE : "DO YOU STILL COLLECT GEC THREAD"
EYE OPENER THERE!!!!!!!!! JUST A FYI some posts in there have been deleted

and for orig question
i expect 100% satisfaction thats it......nothin short of that! same as i would give a person!

[reddirtknives]

A couple of years ago, maybe three or four, I bought a used SOG lockback knife on ebay. When it arrived I discovered the locking mechanism did not work and the blade closed with only a moderate amount of pressure. I contacted the seller who told me to just throw the knife away and then issued a refund.

Well I'm not one to throw away a knife, even one with "issues" so I contacted the folks at SOG and they told to mail it to them. I did and in a week or so I received a brand new, in the box, replacement for the malfunctioning one, no questions asked. THAT is what I call customer service !

That is what I call a GOOD DEAL!!!

[reddirtknives]

Coffeecup Sir., Did you purchase this knife factory direct or from a dealer of this brand or are you a dealer of this brand and the company sent you a faulty knife or are tired of you whining about every little minute smudge and they are wore out by you???? DETAILS PLEASE... You are leaving some key bit of information out.... Who is the Dealer please... Who is the Knife manufacturer please? And What Brand of knife is it Please..... It sounds like we are at a dead end and have learned nothing from this whole topic... I'm here to learn..... Thank you Sir.

[coffeecup]

I'm here to learn too: that is why I started the thread. Who made or sold the knife has nothing to do with my initial questions (unless, of course, there are different expectations for different manufacturers).

The knife was purchased from one of the factory-authorized dealers. Other than buying their product, I have no connection with the company. I'm not a dealer of any particular brand of anything. The first email to the company about this knife was my first contact with the company.

Junebug, I wrote the knife off before I cut it apart. I wasn't inclined to try to make a crusade out of making the factory stand behind their work, or their warranty. Really, after doing whatever it would have taken to get them to take corrective action, I wouldn't have wanted the knife anyhow.

I suspect, if in the future I ever again buy a new knife (vs. the older knives I often prefer), I'll make one attempt to contact the factory before sending the knife back to the dealer. The choice seems to be to waste time trying to get the factory to act, or to pay the dealers their "restocking fees."

[reddirtknives]

paying a restocking fee on a knife that doesn't function as should is something that I don't understand... And you having to deal with the Maker yourself is something I'm not understanding either. May I ask you one question Sir. You said this was the companies high end knife and you paid >$100 for it and I'm sure that you paid in advance. So was this >$100 knife a knife made by a company who would churn out 10 or 20,000 of this knife or a company that would make limited runs of your particular knife? Either way doesn't change how the customer should be treated but it should effect their quality control and wether or not the knife should be inspected at the factory and then again by the dealer before being shipped to you. And if this was a stag handled knife you KNOW that the dealer opened and checked it out because thats what they do.... looking for that type of stag that so and so likes so and so = guy who buys more annually or his friend or himself. If it was 1 out of 30,000 made you shouldn't have had any problem getting it replaced. And I still don't get the restocking fee... Sorry but muh brain can't wrap around that one... I'm guessing you don't want to sever ties with dealer because you plan on staying on the list for future knives??? I know of a dealer who inspects every knife personally and does not send any flawed knives out either mechanically or cosmetically... And returns the flawed back to the makers... These knives that cost over $100 should meet quality control a couple times before you ever see it IMO...... Can I request the PM others requested or did you not reveal anything to anyone? I won't tell anyone anything... mums the word... Promise... This is a frustrating topic that seems like you should have been able to resolve before it came to this unless the company was in another country and spoke a different language.... UGH!

[Cutty]

Don't think he's gonna tell.
Dead End!

[reddirtknives]

Do ya think it starts with a G ?

[coffeecup]

I'm sorry, I really don't have a feel for the production level of this particular knife model. I bought it to use, not collect, so I didn't pay any attention to that. My understanding is that it was "limited", but I don't know if the production run was 100 knives or 1,000 knives or what. Since no attempt was made to repair or replace the knife, the size of the production run is irrelevant other than the QC issue.

In the case of knives returned due to problems with the knife, many dealers claim they waive restocking fees. I've never heard of this actually happening. Many dealers suggest (or even insist) that the buyer return the knives to the factory, usually claiming that this is to let the factory know what customers expect. It has never made sense to me, it looks to me like dealers do it to avoid dealing with the factory.

I'm not trying to stay on the dealer's list for future offerings. I just don't think he had any connection to the manufacturer's inaction. That is not to say I will ever purchase another knife from him.

I haven't responded to any requests for PMs about the maker.