Old tang stamps. Does a non perfect stamp mean counterfeit?

[zp4ja]

Because of counterfeiters I tend to question anything. Unfortunately a drop of speculation breeds a gallon of doubt. Especially when $$ is involved and it's a frequently counterfeited brand/era. I know just enough to be easily scared off

In my mind, better to be easily scared off than easily bilked outta my bucks.

Correct Jerry, better safe than sorry, I get it. Nothing ventured, nothing lost. Also, nothing gained either.

Regards, Jerry

[Miller Bro's]

got any CASE stamp dyes in that pile?

No, none in that pile, mostly all English manufacturers.

Thanks for the extensive detailed input.

[Mossdancer]

Hey DeMitri;
I just ran across this Old KA-BAR in a lower drawer and it is rather interesting. From the four rivets in the handles to the single four inch clip blade and a 9 1/4 inch oal. Tiny though at 7/16" wide. A Bodacious single back spring.The Match strike is very prevalent. I think with everything else the tang stamp stands out saying just what I don't know. I read somewhere that O.C.Co used KA-BAR as a brand and am wondering what the REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. under the KA-BAR stamp is trying to indicate. That is a full size Raft or Rope knife for comparison. The spring is for hell stout. Were the KA-BAR to be alone the knife would fall into the 50's. I think it may be older. What say you?
moss
P.S. There is no other info on the Knife.

[Miller Bro's]

I think with everything else the tang stamp stands out saying just what I don't know. I read somewhere that O.C.Co used KA-BAR as a brand and am wondering what the REG.U.S.PAT.OFF. under the KA-BAR stamp is trying to indicate.

The KA-BAR trademark was first used in 1923, the company received a patent on that name in 1949.

By 1951 the KA-BAR name was so popular they decided to change the company name from Union Cutlery Co. to KA-BAR Cutlery Co. Inc.

[zp4ja]

This thread need reviving as it is a very important topic in my opinion. Great thread so far and thanks to all for the valued input! I may have missed it but it appears not one member that replied thinks a non perfect stamp means a bad or counterfeit knife, just indicative of a non perfect stamp.

Here is another old CASE knife. This knife is right as rain! Several knowledgeable members and experts have commented on this knife as a authentic and in great shape example.

That being said, look how the "B" in "Bradford" is is partially cut off on the stamp. Kind of a scarce stamp but nonetheless authentic. I posted the rest of the knife too. Again, I personally glance at the stamp to see intended era and then read the rest of the knife fully before looking closely at the stamp. Everyone does it different but I firmly stand behind my statement, a perfect authentic stamp means nothing if the rest of/parts of the knife are not authentic. Read the knife, not the stamp!!!!!!!!! A non perfect stamp on a knife that otherwise reads well is no big deal or cause for concern when it comes to old CASE knives! Read the knife, not the stamp!!!!!!!!! Good clean stamps are preferable but does not make a total knife authentic.

Regards, Jerry

[btrwtr]

If I see a knife that interests me. Assuming the blades are closed to start with I never open the blades until I have looked the knife over thoroughly with the blades closed. Many times it is easy to guess the brand before looking but that isn't important until I look it over, blades closed. I will roll the knife over in my hands as I inspect it.

I am looking for the knife to agree with itself. Wanting the knife to tell me that the amount of wear on the handles, type of jigging in the bone or the age and fit of celluloid is all correct. I look closely for any imperfections in the handles. Is the handle material and color correct for the manufacturer? How do the blades sit in the frame when closed? Do the lengths look correct? Check the way the back springs sit with the blades closed. Do the pins look correct? Are they spun or peened? Are they the same as the liner material? Do the pivot pins look correct? Does the pin material match the bolster when it should? Are the pivot pins visible and are they high or low in the bolster? What is the condition of the bolsters? Are there file or sanding marks visible? Are the bolsters at all misshaped?

After looking over the knife, blades closed I will then open the blades and and see if they agree with the rest of the knife. Is the amount of blade wear consistent with the rest of the knife? Do they fit and open and close properly? How do the back springs sit against the frame when the blades are open? Is the blade material correct? What do the blade kicks and choils look like? Are there any signs anywhere on the knife that it has been worked on? Cleaned? Taken apart?

What does the inside of the knife look like? Is the condition of the back springs consistent with the rest of the knife? Can you see the handle pins and shield pins on the inside?

I am saying all this to confirm it is easier for me personally to try to authenticate the knife than it is for me to authenticate the tang stamp. I can read the knife better than I can the stamp. Yes, I can often detect a bad stamp but it is easier for me to tell if the knife is good or bad before I see the stamp. Often I will know something is wrong or perhaps suspicious before I ever open the blades. The stamp is just one component of what makes the knife what it is along with all the above. Personally I often like the knife way more than what the tang stamp says it is. The tang stamp branding may give the knife some type of premium but to me that is often secondary. I want to like the knife first. Then the brand.

I purchased a big clasp Case Tested 6172 pattern some time ago. Picture provided below. I read the knife as thoroughly as I could before ever looking at the blade stamp. All okay until I flipped it over to the reverse of the tang and I see the pattern number stamped on the blade. Not unusual for a very early tested knife to have a pattern number stamp somewhere on one of the blades but the pattern is marked 6272. How can that be? This is not a 2 blade knife as indicated by the first 2 in the pattern. Needless to say this made my head spin. The knife read perfectly fine up until my last look and then the big question. How and why could anyone fake such a fine looking knife and then apply such a good looking fake stamp but use the wrong pattern number?

Well I remembered seeing something about this somewhere so I began searching all my literature until I found it in Withcer's book on page #69. Point is that they used an incorrect pattern stamp on this knife. They did not throw the stamp out, they used it anyway. Just the same as they used so many worn out stamps on nearly every old brand imaginable. Yes, they were frugal and the man that bought that 6172 marked 6272 never blinked just as the guys that bought thousands or other poorly stamped knives never blinked. They weren't knife collectors back then but they still read the knife. I don't think those guys spent much time examining the stamps but I would bet they looked that knife over real good before they put down their money. If the knife was sound, walked and talked, and had a good edge it made the grade.

I have seen many early stamps, like the NYK example in this thread, that looked plain terrible. Shallow, uneven, off center, worn. Have you ever seen a perfect MSA stamp on an old fixed blade? It would make me suspicious if I did. I have a knife right now that I am looking at. An unusual Case Brothers stamp that looks much like the NYK shown. Very shallow and fuzzy looking. The knife reads good, the stamp, though like the NYK looks good to me as well. After looking at all the above the knife agrees with itself. I think it's okay, or should I say I hope?

I just posted several early knives in another thread here on AAPK. A Phoenix and Platts Brothers with stamps that look pretty much like the NYK posted in the thread. Poor stamps on good knives.

I don't profess to be an expert and certainly my opinion on any specific knife is no more than just one opinion. Everybody has one.

I read the knife first. Stamp last.


Wayne Robertson

[RobesonsRme.com]

I'm not the overall knife historian that some on AAPK so obviously appear to be.

Thank Goodness they're among us.

I collect a single brand, made in three separate factories over time, not including the unknown number of facilities that made the early original foreign imports from England and Germany.

So, I know little to nothing about the making of a pocketknife.

Re' these off-center stamps with missing or partially missing end letters, how much grinding, filing, shaping or fitting was done in the final assembly of a knife so the blades opened, closed and lay properly within the frame?

I suspect quite a bit.

So, a properly centered stamp might have been partially obliterated by some judicious grinding of the kick.

Charlie Noyes

[knifeaholic]

Wayne;

I recently sold a similar Case 6172 with the 6272 pattern number myself. The knife was right as rain.