Unkown maker

[268bull]

Picked up this unkown knife this morning at an estate sale. Was stuck in a wood box along with a bunch of old chisels, punches, and the likes. I can't find a mark of any sorts on the knife itself. The sheath it was in, I believe to be original to the knife. Fits it like a glove. On the back of the sheath are stamped into the leather a row of 5 swastika's. A single swastika is stamped about an inch above that, and above that is stamped 2 stars. Not a clue as to what any of that may mean. The knife had been neglected, so I put it up to the buffing wheel after I had used a scotch brite pad on it. I realize that comment may make a lot cringe, but the knife looks way better than it did at first. There are 4 inch bone handles held on with brass rivets, 6 inch blade. It's good and solid, just sort of knarly looking. If someone may know anything about that stamping on the sheath, I'd be greatful to hear about it. Thanks for your time. Bull

[268bull]

No, I'm not ego driven, answering my own question , but I do have an interesting update. After cleaning up the sheath, I discovered a number of symbols stamped into the leather. After studying the different symbols ( 3x3, 5 pointed stars, 6 petal flower, counter-clock wise swastika ), and of course this is subjective, I believe the knife to be a trade knife, probably dating back to the 1880's, german made. I believe that the knife was owned by a pioneer of that time frame. The symbols have a connecting theme, spirituality. The owner had, possibly, the best he was able to afford. There were better trade knives on the market at the same time ( French, & English ). The knife is typical of the evolution knives had made, when a hunter and frontiersman wanted a one knife fits all needs. Knives had become a light butcher type. Still heavy enough to field dress, but not so cumbersome as to what a bowie style knife was. The light weighted trade knife could do the field dressing of game and still be enough to do camp chores as well. And if needed, it still could preform self-defense as well. I believe the original owner blessed his knife to serve him well, do all it was needed to do, and to continue doing so. That's what the symbols on the knife indicate, Spirituality. Germany flooded the market back in the 1870's, 80's, with these inexpensive trade knives. By the 1890's our gov't. required trademarks ( Tariff Laws ) on all imported goods to impose higher tariffs. By then, the knife evolution continuing, hunting knives were evolving into the sheath belt knife we recognize and many of us collect today. Just think how the hunting knife has evolved in our lifetime, many carry folders, with a pocket clip, and are moving away from sheath - belt knives. As I started out saying, this is all subjective to each one of us. But I've had the time to study what I have, and even if the knife is an inexpensive, German made trade knife, which the market was flooded with at that time, it's a solid knife, carbon sheet steel, which by the way, it took a very keen edge. Or, I may have a pig in a poke, I don't know for sure. But it's been an interesting study at least. Bull

[Miller Bro's]

Never mind the knife, I would like to see pictures of the sheath

[268bull]

Hi Dimitri, I'll try to get a recognizable photo of the sheath, but no promises how they'll turn out. I will say this about the sheath. It has been altered at some point in it's life. On the front leather there are indications that the leather was sewn to the back piece higher than what it is now. One side shows the leather and stiching went up approx. 1 1/4 inches higher, the other side indicates approx. 1/2 inch higher. That tri-agular type piece would have covered the bottom third of the handle, leaving me to suspect the knife, while in it's sheath was slipped down into a waist band, in the small of the back perhap's. Where the leather tri shaped piece was cut off was not a clean cut. Also, some previous owner cut 2 slits, crudley, so the sheath and knife would be worn on a belt. The other style ( before the alteration of the sheath ) would allow the knife to be drawn using the thumb and forefinger. I'll work on attempting the pic of the back of the sheath, see what I get Dimitri. Bull ( Dale ) Oh yeah, there never was or is a snap to hold the knife handle at the top. There was just a piece of rawkide lace tied onto the knife.

[268bull]

An update about my knife; We had our monthly meetinglast evening ( OKCA - Oregon Knife Collectors Assoc. ) and all talk was around our big show which is coming up ( April 12 - 14th ). Meeting went smoothly, as usual, but after each meeting we hold a show and tell, usually concerning a newly made knife for some, a new collectible for others, etc.. I took my above mentioned knife and waited till the floor was mine. I told the group how I had come across the knife, the discovery of the symbols on the back of the sheath, and the story of what those symbols represent, or so I believed to be. The group agreed for the most part that the symbols were as I had explained. We have, however, the fortune of having a couple of distinct members here in Eugene, belonging to the club, Mr Bernard Levine, Mr Wayne Goddard. They were quite interested in my knife and sheath, as well as other members were, and after the show , had the opportunity to examine it more closely. Bernard pointed out that the knife was not German as I had thought it may be. He believes the knife to be made here in the States. It is not a factory made knife, but hammered out on some pioneers anvil, and done very well. The handles are stag, possibly elk or moose, and a good possibility they are not the original handles. Bernard ages the knife in the 1870's, 1880. Wayne pointed out that the maker of this knife knew well what they were doing as he pointed out the hollow grind on the blade. All and all it was a good meeting. I'm happy to recieve the additional information and am proud to now be the new owner of this interesting knife. Bull

[tongueriver]

What an interesting piece! I'll bet you have more fun with that knife than many a fancier item in your collection! Mystery and human interest galore make for some real enjoyment beyond "value." Good job!

[268bull]

Your right! This ended up being one of the most interesting discoveries of history that I've come across. Even more, I feel honored to own a little piece of historical significance. I wouldn't even know where or how to begin to put a price on this knife. Bull

[Miller Bro's]

I would still like to see pictures of the sheath

[268bull]

Hi Dimitri. Dimitri, I did take pic's of the sheath and the portion which is stamped with the symbols I mentioned. Unfortunately, either due to my camera's limited capabilities or my inabilities to use the camera to capture a good pic. The ones I have taken make the symbols all but barely visible. It's next to impossible to get the correct light and angle, but here is what I can provide for you. Sorry there're not better. Bull

[Colonel666]

Oh come on. I have seen stuff like this before. Every knife collector wants to find a "diamond" in the "rough" and cash in. This is a 4" long handle made to fit a child's small hands. Even Ka-Bar made small hunters for boy scouts in the 60's. The grip material is held by cutlery rivets so it is a camp steak knife like Boker likes to produce. Elk if I ever seen it before. Leather just cannot be from 1880 without crumbling at the slightest touch generally. Leather not German craftsmanship that had strict quality standards. The Nazi symbols are NOT real, because they are uneven looking. At most this is a custom Anton Wingen made by order commercially for a German boy scout who was part of the Edelweiss Mountain Troop leagues. It is valuable, and also good to spread on Peter Pan peanut butter.

[Ramrod]

Oh come on. I have seen stuff like this before. Every knife collector wants to find a "diamond" in the "rough" and cash in. This is a 4" long handle made to fit a child's small hands. Even Ka-Bar made small hunters for boy scouts in the 60's. The grip material is held by cutlery rivets so it is a camp steak knife like Boker likes to produce. Elk if I ever seen it before. Leather just cannot be from 1880 without crumbling at the slightest touch generally. Leather not German craftsmanship that had strict quality standards. The Nazi symbols are NOT real, because they are uneven looking. At most this is a custom Anton Wingen made by order commercially for a German boy scout who was part of the Edelweiss Mountain Troop leagues. It is valuable, and also good to spread on Peter Pan peanut butter.

I'm glad you disqualified that with "generally", but I still disagree. I have 2 examples of leather sheaths from that time period that are still intact, and do NOT crumble at the slightest touch.
Mark

[tjmurphy]

The Colonel has a lot of great stories

[Bret888]

I think you are right TJ.

268bull, see if you can find a symbol of a flower on your camera, either in a menu, or a separate button? This will be the Macro on/off, that lets you focus at the close distance you are trying to get.

[268bull]

Colonel, apparently I have insulted your with my " diamond in the rough ". I try very hard not to challenge or offend any of the folks on the site, my apology's. I was at an estate sale, which had a fair amount antiques. Most of those were furnitue. Since I deal with only smalls, I moved on to the garage. It contained mostly collectibles. This knife lay in an old dirty box along with dirty drift punches and cold chisels. I picked it up and payed no more attention to it till I got back home. Your right, the leather sheath was pretty dry, but I carefully cleaned it and since then have been working neatsfoot oil into the leather. Those pics of the of the sheath were taken after many coats of oil. The sheath is still though, very fragile. I cleaned the blade of a lot of rust and corrosion aftermaking sure there were no obvious makers marks. I buffed the blade once on each side to remove some more corrosion. I followed the advice given one time, read the knife. The knife told me some, but it was the back of the sheath that held a story. And that's wher this story really began. Perhaps Colonel, you've watched to much history channel, and that's the conclusion you've come to about swastika's. Swastika's were around 3000 yrs before Herr Adolph adopted it. NOT ALL swastika's are nazi. The pics are poor, as i said. But to hold the sheath in your hand, those stamps are done very neatly It was pointed out by a couple of well spoken knife historians that the handles were not original, and I mentioned that. I also said this info was subject. But after the OKCA meeting this past week, I'm a little more inclined to believe that, I just may have come across that " Diamond in th Rough ". 2 knife historians, makers, collectors, had the oppotunity to dispell that notion. I'm not going to tell them ther're Huff & Puff. Your entitled to believe what you want Colonel, but while your spreading peanut butter with your's, I'm believing and enjoying my knife. Dale H. P.S. I've always wondered, were you a real colonel??

[Miller Bro's]

Colonel, apparently I have insulted your with my " diamond in the rough ". I try very hard not to challenge or offend any of the folks on the site, my apology's.

Bull, I think the Colonel should be the one to apologize, not you.

He seems to be repeatedly spewing false information on various threads here on AAPK, none of which makes any sense.

I would disregard anything he has said about your old knife.

Also, thanks for the pictures of the sheath

[268bull]

Thanks Dimitri Bull