Betz Bro's Boy Scout Camp Knife

[Colonel666]

The markings "JND" next to "USA" What does it mean? It is below "HAMMOND" and above "GERMANY".

[cato]

you sure it jnd and not ind for hammond indiana

[Colonel666]

Hi Cato, Yes indeedy, very clear capitol letters on three of the blade tangs match. Very pronounced "hook" on the "J" in "JND". I thought it stood for "JUGEND" at first.

[Colonel666]

Hi Cato, Yes indeedy, very clear capitol letters on three of the blade tangs match. Very pronounced "hook" on the "J" in "JND". I thought it stood for "JUGEND" at first.

[Colonel666]

[album][/album] Here is a closer look at the tang stamp. Maybe "JND" means Jugend National Defense in the USA?

[Iron Hoarder]

It's possible the German fellow who loaded the letters in the stamping press grabbed a J instead of the I next to it.

[Colonel666]

Doubt there was any factory error, lol. Camp Frank S. Betz is in Berrien Springs, Michigan. He was the first millionaire in Hamond and owned Betz Air Lines,Inc. In 1928. George Betz was SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer (#625,419) in Die Fliegerstaffel does Fuhrers. He was Hitler's personal co-pilot and Hans Baur's substitute. In 1932 George Betz was a captain and flew for Lufthansa. Also present in the Fuhrerbunker in Berlin (April 1945). Hitler received a contingent of 20 HJ in his bunker (March 19) being the last time he was photographed. The Boy Scout Movement was banned in Nazi Deutschland and adopted into the Jugend National Defense (JND) led by Julius Streicher in 1933. Only basic content and outlook changed like shooting, handling weapons. Joseph Goebbels participated with youths he calls "Werewolves". Many countries had Hitler Jugend Organization movements including Pathfinders and Campfire Girl Scout troops. Seems difficult to believe your own eyes but the facts tell vividly the actual truth. I am open to additional info if you have any!

[Iron Hoarder]

That is becoming a very interesting knife. How long did the Nazi party in the US last before the US entered the war?

[Miller Bro's]

Let`s see a close up of the other three blade tang stamps

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Betz-Bros-Hammo ... 7675.l2557

[Ramrod]

J looks wierd.
In the desc. he says Ind.

[tjmurphy]

I have one that is very much like that except it has a scissors and made by Anton Wingen, Jr.

[Colonel666]

[album][/album] Here are the other two tang marks. I feel it looks more like a Peres made. Also, this is a "Bro's" which are Frank S. Betz's three sons so not pre-WWll, more related to German Scouting and not so much HJ. Very interesting but not "funny"! Actually this is my very first post. OK?

[jamesward]

Im interested for that kind of knife. how much u can sell of that.
or trade to my knife collection . pm me for faster transaction.

[Colonel666]

Thanks for offering to buy. It is so odd that I stare at it. I sell at trade shows but I actually have never sold over internet before. I feel a bit odd to sell and not look deep into the eye and face to face. It is my policy only selling knives to those within "arm's-reach" to assure complete satisfaction.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Are the OP knife and Sportscolb's auction knife not one and the same? They have the same pitting pattern.

[Colonel666]

Yes, it is because I bought it from "The Dusty Duck". I don't really know who looked it up to post from the E-bay listing that was ended. Doesn't matter much, very rare and probably not that many examples to reference on the internet. Dusty Duck listed it as saying it was marked "Indiana" IND. They didn't look closely enough when they auctioned it. I only knew after it arrived what the difference was. Below I included further example of Jugend and HJ Scouting knives that exist in countries outside of Germany. The photo shows the similarity between a Nazideuschland F.W. Holler and a "Brannik" made by Wenger:

[Miller Bro's]

Doubt there was any factory error, lol. Camp Frank S. Betz is in Berrien Springs, Michigan. He was the first millionaire in Hamond and owned Betz Air Lines,Inc. In 1928. George Betz was SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer (#625,419) in Die Fliegerstaffel does Fuhrers. He was Hitler's personal co-pilot and Hans Baur's substitute. In 1932 George Betz was a captain and flew for Lufthansa. Also present in the Fuhrerbunker in Berlin (April 1945). Hitler received a contingent of 20 HJ in his bunker (March 19) being the last time he was photographed. The Boy Scout Movement was banned in Nazi Deutschland and adopted into the Jugend National Defense (JND) led by Julius Streicher in 1933. Only basic content and outlook changed like shooting, handling weapons. Joseph Goebbels participated with youths he calls "Werewolves". Many countries had Hitler Jugend Organization movements including Pathfinders and Campfire Girl Scout troops. Seems difficult to believe your own eyes but the facts tell vividly the actual truth. I am open to additional info if you have any!

You seem to have an over active imagination.

The stamp is marked Hammond Ind. U.S.A., nothing else makes any sense, especially your tie in to Jugend National defense.

[Colonel666]

Look closely, the tang stamps on all 3 blades say "JND" not "IND". Why not Google Frank J. Betz BSA Camp website. They include shooting rifles (target practice) as part of the curriculum. Try to be open minded to the reality of modern-day German Scouting.

[Miller Bro's]

Look closely, the tang stamps on all 3 blades say "JND" not "IND".

I did look close, it is an error in the tang stamp, this happened on occasion when tang stamps were produced. There are examples of this on AAPK if you bother to look. A factory error nothing more.

Why not Google Frank J. Betz BSA Camp website. They include shooting rifles (target practice) as part of the curriculum.

I did Google old Frank, a very fascinating man and life story. He was in the pharmaceutical supply business as a manufacturer and an importer. Nothing in his biography about being a partner in Betz`s Brothers or any affiliation with his brothers, if he had any, in any type of business venture, he was at the head of the Frank S. Betz`s company till his death. His tie in with the Boy scout was that he paid for a piece of land for the scouts to use as their camp, nothing else. If he was going to supply the scouts with knives and had them made in Germany he would have had his name stamped on them, not Betz`s Bro`s.

Try to be open minded to the reality of modern-day German Scouting.

I am very open minded, suppose you educate me on "modern-day German scouting"

[Colonel666]

Uh, oh. Step on my "Blue Suede Shoes".

[knives-are-quiet]

He did have two sons, Frank R. and Lyman, of Hammond.
Maybe they got together and had these scout knives made up after the death of there Father in 1940?
Or even his Sons Sons?


I think the (J) is an error like Miller Bro's said.
The letters are right next to each other in the alphabet.

JW~

[Colonel666]

Most people always agree with the man who's holding a gun that keeps shooting endlessly. Sorry for the pun, Tim, no harm intended. This pocketknife is quite a find. If the "JND" is really a "boo-boo" then "IND" must be "It's-Not-Deuschland". That's what most thought before the "Invasion of Austria" in WW2. Maybe "JND" is short for "Jerry-Not-Decided". Below is a "I can't believe this is Deuschland" Happy New Year Austria token and a Nazi Party Austrian Annexation tinnie from the same year:

[Miller Bro's]

If the "JND" is really a "boo-boo" then "IND" must be "It's-Not-Deuschland". That's what most thought before the "Invasion of Austria" in WW2. Maybe "JND" is short for "Jerry-Not-Decided". Below is a "I can't believe this is Deuschland" Happy New Year Austria token and a Nazi Party Austrian Annexation tinnie from the same year:

[knife7knut]

Don't know if this is pertinent to the discussion but I have a Gernan made knife that has this stamp on it.Note that instead of the abbreviation "INC" it says,"JNC". This is a two blade knife and the stamp is the same on both blades.BTW the knife has two unusually shaped blades made of (I think)brass:one is shaped like a miniature table knife and the other looks like a harpoon.Someone ventured that it was likely a ladies' fruit knife as the hook blade was good for peeling oranges.

[Miller Bro's]

Ray, I would like to see the entire knife

Check this out;

http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/us ... k_2/00.php