CASE XX 17 pattern and main blade fit in the "well"

[zp4ja]

So I have 3 CASE Loom Fixers. 2 are pictured here on this thread. The other is a 1974 6217 in Delrin (EDIT, wood handles). All appear to never had any carry time or use. Near mint.

So here is the question, I pull the XX knives out and the mainblade has excellent snap and half stop (both blades as a matter of fact) but does not appear to close all the way into the well. The edge of the blades does pass the center liner when closed but not by much, maybe 1/4 to more depending on the area of the blade we are referring to. Flat edge, curved knife. Mainblade reprofiled, NOPE! Not according to the pics in the the books and the knife read on all three knives. Never been apart or professionally cleaned or reprofiled.

I can take my thumb on all three examples sheepfoot blade when closed and press the blade further down into the well without it hitting the backspring. This is not slop or play in the action as I can feel the backspring getting tighter as I depress it further. Can be pushed at least 3/8" inch but I did not go too much farther for concern of breaking the backspring or something.

What is the deal here? Obviously made that way due to comparison and similarities between 3 seperate examples. In case some textile was caught on the blade so it would still close? The more plausable reason would seem to be that you can open this knife without using the nail nick. Like an easy open without the notch cut in the frame. Liitle harder to do on the XX knives due to stiff springs but doable. Maybe the textile/loom worker used gloves and this was advantageous.

By the way, in addition to my question, here are some pretty examples to share some pics of. According to Steve's book, the 2217 Slick Black Loom Fixer is a "relatively rare variation discontinued sometime prior to 1955". The dark red bone XX is a beauty too in my opinion.

What a nice frame this is! Feels like a true worknig knife in hand. A nice stout 4 inch Jack!!!

Thanks for the help and the theories/data on the deal with the mainblade as I inquired.

Regards, Jerry

[Elvis]

The blade kick (the high spot on the front of the tang) should be the only part towards the blade end touching the backspring with the knife in the closed position. Unless they were planning on it working correctly after several sharpenings rather than when it was new, all I can see is a design flaw. You should be able to depress the blade in the closed position and feel the backspring move outward at the bottom. Am I missing something, because it doesn't sound like the blade shape and the backspring are a good fit here. Maybe if I owned a 17 I'd see it a bit differently.

[zp4ja]

Hey Bob,

Thanks as always for your valued input.

The fit on these knives is outstanding, perfect in my book. The back of the tangs match perfectly with the backsprings. As you said, if you had a 17 pattern to compare you would immediately understand what I mean.

I can depress the blade into the well as I stated but it goes far into the well of the knife in all 3 examples I have. Whether by design flaw or not, I have three knives of the same pattern with the same characteristics.

I still think they were made this way for a reason based on what I see knives in hand. Just not sure why. I still think my theories may be plausible, but who knows. The reason I posted for all the member's valued input.

You have to pick one of these up. What a frame/knife, in my opinion.

Thanks again Bob for the input/reply!

Regards, Jerry

[royal0014]

Man whatta couple of 17's!!

First black one I have seen, too. My one example is poor in comparison.

Can't say I've ever noticed the blade kick as you described. Next time I have mine out I will pay more attention.

[Elvis]

It was the part about pushing down on the closed blade and not getting any movement at the backspring that makes me think that the kick isn't touching the spring first that concerns me. They're beautiful knives and the guys I know that collect them absoutely love them. It's just that if the kick isn't making contact with the backspring, then the blade must be. It's hard for me to picture Case designing a knife for the blade to hit the backspring. Maybe you should just send them to me for a 5 year evaluation Jerry.

[zp4ja]

Thanks Royal! I was pretty amazed while handling these knives yesterday. Even the 75' wood (not my favorite handle material) frame is just a awesome piece. I really like this frame!!!What is the nicest part is that none of the examples have been carried, sharpened or professionally cleaned. Pretty damn close to factory inside and out.


Hey Bob,

Sorry but I must not be describing this well. The kick rests perfectly on the backspring when closed. When I press down on the mainblade, the backspring immiediately starts to move. No slop at all. Blades don't come close to hitting the backsprings, but the tip is not sticking out of the well either. All three knives have the same action/characteristics.

I can push the blade down at least 3/8" and the backspring moves smoothly the entire way. I can probably push it down even furher but the tension on the spring is getting pretty damn tight at that point and I don't want to snap the spring or damage the knife to find out how far it will go.

This is definitely by design for some reason.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. Hope someone can pull out their 17 to see what I mean. I still think my EO without the notch theory best explains what I think the reason is, but I could be wrong.

Regards, Jerry

[Phin Spencer]

Jerry, I have 2 10 dot 1970 '17s, 1 wood and 1 bone. When I close
the main blade I get no further movement. They close with a good snap
but I can not get the blade to depress any further. I don't see how you
could get them to go that distance into the well.
Phin

[zp4ja]

Hey Phin,

Hope life is well.

Don't know what to tell you my friend. All I can say is that I have 3 near mint, unmolested knives all with the same characteristics. The slick black and the 74' wood knives were made at least 20 years apart and behave the same. All three knives have incredible strong snap both ways and snap quickly yet firmly to a audible snap at half stop. One could not hope for better action on a knife.

When your 2 examples are closed, how far is the tip of the blade down into the well? The well is about 5/8 inch deep roughly where the Sheepfoot mainblade tip would meet the knife. The blade where the spine curves down to the tip is roughy 3/4". Given this fact, if the blade was all the way down in the well, the nail nick would be covered by the secondary blade which is in the knife front on this model.

So if the Sheepfoot blade tip is not at least a half inch into the well, you will be able to depress the mainblade.

BTW, I am talking about a significant amount of thumb pressure to push the blade down into the well as the backspring is working against you. As I said, I was apprehensive to do it in fear of snapping the backspring or something. Everything is totally tight and I don't want to give the impression that we are talking about blade play here.

Please let me know, Regards, Jerry

[Phin Spencer]

Jerry Hi. On both knives the sheepfoot blade sit about 3/16th into the well at
the tip. There is plenty of room from the tip of the blade to the bottom of the well.
Try as hard as I can and I can the blade to move further into the well about 1/32.
These knives are in near mint condition, can't say mint cause they didn't come
raped and in a box!
Phin

[zp4ja]

AHH HA!!! Thanks for checking Phin.

Maybe my example differ slightly as far as depressing the blade due to hand work by the Cutler.

But, your knives are consistent with mine is the same aspect that the blade edge is far from reaching the backspring. This was the more important question/observation of my original post. Not that you would want the blade to slam against or rest on the backspring.

So your blade tip goes only 3/16" into the well. When you say "There is plenty of room from the tip of the blade to the bottom of the well", same on my knives. Main point of my original post. So with my very rough measurements, that would leave about 7/16" from blade tip to backspring. have not seen other CASE frames where this is the case. Hence, in my opinion, by design and for a reason. not sure why though but I suggested some theories.

My knives are near mint also so this not a question of wear or reprofiling or such. This was by design for some damn reason. I hope others chime in.

Thanks again Phin for the info. Regards, Jerry

[knifeaholic]

I'll have to check some of mine when I have the chance.

[zp4ja]

Thanks much Steve. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this! Look forward to what you have to say/ what you find as this is an interesting question to me. I won't go as far as saying this is bugging me as it appears to be by design, just very curious.

Thanks again Bob, Phin and Royal for the input and thoughts, etc.

Regards, Jerry

[Phin Spencer]

Jerry... After further thought it became clear to me, or sort of. If the "17s were
used in the textile industry, or as Steve says in his book evolved from rope knives,
then the tip of the sheepfoot should never reach the back spring. Doing so you
would lose the most important part of the knife, the tip of that blade. Buy leaving
that space the tip is saved, and if sharpened there still is space to be had knocking
the coil down a bit. The thing is we always look for the near mint knifes. A quick
look at the well used knives might give us the answer.
Just a thought!
Phin

[zp4ja]

It's possible. I am not sugeesting that the blade should hit the backspring. If that is the case, the amount of clearence just seems like overkill or excessive to me.

[zp4ja]

Anyone else get a chance to pull out a 17 frame and look at what I was describing?

Still very curious about this one.

Thanks, Jerry

[bamafan]

Just pulled mine out & checked it out. XX era is the only one i have. Close to mint too. Mine does the same as yours. Tip of blade barely down below liner when closed. And I can depress the blade into the well another 1/4" at least into the well. No idea why they're that way. Just the way it is I suppose.

[Robert]

nice one bama

[zp4ja]

Hey Bama,

Thanks much for checking this! I had no doubt that that was the way it was meant to be with my 3 knives showing the same behavior. Maybe I will call Tony Foster and see what he knows. Not the mountain I want to die on but be very interested to know why.

What a beautiful example you have there. looks like the same bone batch as the one I posted.

Regards, Jerry

[biglmbass]

The blade doesn't move at all when I push down on this one. For what it's worth the very tip of the blade is about 1/16" below the liner. I think I have another one I can check, if I can recall where it's at.

[Old Hunter]

Jerry, per your request I just took a look at my 1974 Case 6217 Loom fixer and found it to be identical to yours. There is in excess of 1/2" "open space" between the point of the blade and the bottom of the blade well at the inside surface of the backspring. I think I have an idea as to why it is built this way. Take a look at the Case 11011/61011 Pruning Knife (three pictures "borrowed" from e-bay listings). Both knives are 3-7/8” in length and appear to use the same frame. Look at the significant kick on the 6217 main blade (top picture of my knife) – I can see where it touches the inside of the backspring in my knife. I think Case simply used the same frame to build both knives and adjusted the kick on the 6217 so it wouldn’t nestle too deeply into the blade well and be difficult to open - the open space in the blade well is designed to accommodate the deeper point on the pruning blade of the 11011 design. Bruce