Prayers for prayer.

[pinnah]

For those of you who believe in prayer, I have an odd request....


Discussions are underway at my church in terms of starting a men's group. The younger men have asked a few of the older men (I guess I'm in that set, like it or not) for mentoring and prayer and it would seem that I've asked an upsetting question in the formation of the group... Will this be a prayer group in which the focus will be doing prayer? Or, will this be a traditional small group in which we'll do a little book lesson, some sharing and a small closing prayer at the end?

No church is perfect and we all come through the doors with our own hurts, baggage and expectations. My wife and I have both had the wonderful experiences of participating in dedicated prayer groups in the past and have seen how dedicated intercessory prayer can transform families, churches and ministries. And in saying this, I'm taking nothing away from the important work that can be done in a small group.

One of the older men who will be involved is a guy I've known for 25 years. We've served on the church board together for many years off on. Somewhere in his past, I think prayer was used as a weapon and he just dislikes communal intercessory prayer. He's OK with small, time limited perfunctory prayer, but not dedicated prayer groups. Obviously, he's strongly demanding that the men's group be more of a traditional small group.

Normally this would be fine with me, as I'm not really interested in upsetting any apple carts but I know several of the young men and their wives are all in a women's prayer group (not small group, but prayer group) that my wife is leading. My concern is that my friend's personal issues with prayer are preventing him from allowing the discernment process to move in a direction that the men are asking for.

At the same time, I don't want my bias for a prayer group to color what I'm hearing from the men and I certainly don't want to cause a problem by asking that we consider a dedicated prayer group.

Church folk don't handle conflict well in many cases. So, I"m asking for your prayers. Pray for peace. Pray for forbearance. Pray for humility (<-especially for me) and wisdom. Pray that we find the right place for prayer.

[orvet]

I have participated in, as well as lead small groups.
IMHO, the most effective 'traditional" small study groups are those which also incorporate a time where each member can share things bothering them, needs, concerns, etc., and then the group prays for each member's concerns.

Is it possible that you can form two groups, one focused on study and the other focused on prayer?

I will put you on my prayer list.
Let us know how it works out.

[Doug Add]

Is it possible that you can form two groups, one focused on study and the other focused on prayer?

That was my thought as I read through your situation, Dave. Will certainly be praying for all involved to be led by the Spirit/have the mind of Christ.

[treefarmer]

pinnah, You said a mouthful in your last paragraph, that church folks don't handle conflict well! I will pray for your mens' group to have unity in it's desire to have a a closer walk. I too am on the "ol' man" side of the church and find some things a little hard to swallow at times. Came to the conclusion that as long as the church teaches and preaches the truth then I will not make too many waves about their songs that are too loud and words I can't understand, because I can't hear like I once did. I can still fellowship with these same folks and realize their worship is true and from the heart especially when these young folks pour out their hearts in prayer. I think down deep, we all know that prayer is the key to all the issues of life, we just need to be reminded now and then. Treefarmer

[rangerbluedog]

Seems like 'Ol Scratch knows where the most danger lies. If he can keep the churches dormant and the saints at each others throat, then he has nothing to fear. Several years ago my first deacons meeting really opened my eyes. The saints are no different from the sinners except for the cleansing blood of the Lamb.
I'll be praying for you Dave.

[pinnah]

So... an update....

The other "old guy", who I've worked with both in Sunday School and on the Board for over 20 years now, and I had a chance to talk by phone on Friday night. I won't say it was an easy or cheerful discussion, because it wasn't. It was, at several points, quite blunt and direct, on both sides.

Thankfully, you guys (and others) were praying and thankfully, Tim and I do have respect for each other's sincerity. Respect and scar tissue can grow along side of each other over the years.

I don't mean to be dismissive of either our Pastor or our District Superintendent (sort of like a Bishop), but I've come to believe it's the long-term lay leaders that form the core of any congregation. Pastors come and pastors go, both for good and for bad. Which is to say, that there have been simmering disagreements between Tim and I both issues of prayer and decision making processes and for the health of the church (and this men's prayer group) we needed to air that stuff out and get past it.

I find "honesty" to be a tricky thing, especially in the church. I've heard way to many insults and destruction prefaced with "To be honest..." On the other hand, I've also learned that failing to be honest and frank can also bury and avoid subjects that need to be confronted. Tricky stuff.

In our conversation, my friend tried to cut me off several times when I tried to explain my position and at one point I had to just jump in and tell him to stop and to remind him that it was a tactic he had a propensity to use. To his credit and because of the grace of God hovering over us and to my deepest respect for him, he was able to hear and receive that harsh bit of "honesty". And, upon hearing and accepting that, after 30 minutes of discussion he finally settled down and for the first time in weeks of back and forth, actually listened to the perspective that I had.

Once he did, he agreed that the points I was raising were valid and needed and he agreed to think about them over the weekend. We talked during the church breakfast on Easter morning and he essentially told me that he had changed his mind and now understood that the group could and should put a much greater emphasis on prayer (which is what I believe the young men had been asking for). It was quite a reversal. We were able to apologize to each other for the pain caused by mis-communication and were both able to commit to each other that we're both 100% invested in the success of the group. This is all really good and positive.

The hardest part for me in this was trying to balance the need to stand up for what I felt was a conviction of the Holy Spirit and what I felt was a need being voice by the young men (a need for more time in prayer) and not letting my own need to be right to make my actions destructive. I find that balance just really hard in the church.

Knife related twist... One of the young men whose emerging as a leader of his age group joined us and when he came over to talk with me Friday afternoon about this subject, he showed me his new box plane. He's a carpenter and a tool guy and he carries a tactical with him both on and off the job. I told him if he liked that box plane, he might like the Buck I just got back from some repair work. So, I took it with me to the breakfast and showed it to him. He loved it. As he's holding it and admiring it, one of the other young guys (a theology student at BU) had his eyeballs pop out of his head.

"What is *that* thing and why in the world would you carry something like that. It's huge?"

My young buddy's response was perfect.

"How can you not carry a knife?" he asked, as he reached into his back pocket to pull out his.

The whole time I'm thinking... "That's just a little old 112. Next time, I'm bringing in my 110."

[philco]

Dave it sounds to me like the Lord is working within that group of men. I pray He will continue to bless your church with godly men who can humble themselves and pray.

Phil

[orvet]

An awesome answer to our prayers Dave!
Thanks for sharing in such an honest & open way!

[Doug Add]

Thanks for that very encouraging update! Nice to know that us old guys can still change and grow.

[orvet]

Thanks for that very encouraging update! Nice to know that us old guys can still change and grow.

Amen Doug!

[rangerbluedog]

O.K. you can have your prayer in the prayer group young man, but don't even TALK to me about putting drums in the sanctuary!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL