Camillus WWII and before!

[Badger]

Mossdancer-
Upon some research into the tl-29 it is more likely to be a marine issue to a lineman in the early 60s Vietnam era. The skinnier of the 2 blades is a scraper/slot screwdriver. It's definately a neat piece and at 10 bucks the price was right.

[Mossdancer]

Badger:
If Orvet or one of the other moderators who knows how could contact Tom Williams I think he might be interested and know some info. By the way is the handle synthetic or wood. If wood I definitely think earlier.
moss

[Badger]

It's definately synthetic, its some sort of plastic. The stamp is a 3 line stamp, I know that doesn't mean much with camillus but its another clue. The secondary blade has an etching in it but I can't make it out due to surface rust. I can only make out the word center.

[tjmurphy]

From what I've read, and just a little at that, the TL-29 with R41-k-455 is probably WWII and is the more rare TL-29. Got this from doing a GOOGLE search for R41-K-455.

[Badger]

From what I've read, and just a little at that, the TL-29 with R41-k-455 is probably WWII and is the more rare TL-29. Got this from doing a GOOGLE search for R41-K-455.

I had read this as well but it seems that the WWII examples had wood or jigged bone handles, the latter being the rarest. And the Vietnam tl-29s were synthetic but I haven't seen one with the r41... Stamp yet. Curious indeed.

[jerryd6818]

Mossdancer-
Upon some research into the tl-29 it is more likely to be a marine issue to a lineman in the early 60s Vietnam era. The skinnier of the 2 blades is a scraper/slot screwdriver. It's definately a neat piece and at 10 bucks the price was right.

I was in the Corps in the early 60s (1962-1966) and my first MOS was 1141 Electrician. Too bad I never got to work in my MOS, otherwise I might have been able to help.

[orvet]

Badger,
Looking at the handle of your knife; around the rocker pin, the lanyard loop & rear pin, it looks different than the newer ones, circa 1970 and newer.
It looks to me like you may have one with Bakelite handles.

I was issued a TL-29 in the Marine Corps about 1971. The handles appear to be black Delrin, or a similar composite.

[jerryd6818]

Dale, I'm not for sure if you meant to say Bakelite but if you did, here's a couple of methods to test for Bakelite.


METHOD 1: THE 409 METHOD
Get yourself some Formula 409 ALL PURPOSE spray cleaner. I am adding that because someone wrote recently that they bought another kind, which is BLUE and does not work to test bakelite. Once you have the correct formula, dip a Q-Tip swab in it, and rub the inside of the bangle gently. If yellow it's likely to be bakelite, if grey or other colors, it's not. Rinse the piece thoroughly and dry after. I've bought from sellers who said they got a positive response to 409 and all they got a response to was DIRT, not a funny situation if you paid good money for the piece. Even with experience, I've been fooled too many times, so I now ask what color was the swab if I have my doubts on an item being as advertised. The only color it should be is a shade of yellow, some say nicotine yellow, not being a smoker, I imagine the stain to be the color of a used cigarette filter, sometimes it's light yellow. Any yellow is a good sign that it's bakelite. European made bakelite stains darker and more reddish in my experience. They say some blacks and reds don't test, I found that possible in black, my reds have always tested.

METHOD 2: SIMICHROME POLISH
A more expensive method is using Simichrome Metal Polish. You can find it at the hardware store, or on ebay right here. A tube is a good investment, as it will shine up ALL your plastics, including Lucite, French Bakelite, and even hard plastic with seams! To test for bakelite with it, the pinkish color of the polish should turn yellow from rubbing it on the bakelite. Here you don't have to worry about rinsing, just buff and shine after testing and look at your cloth, yellow means bakelite, not yellow, probably not.

[Badger]

Dale, I'm not for sure if you meant to say Bakelite but if you did, here's a couple of methods to test for Bakelite.


METHOD 1: THE 409 METHOD
Get yourself some Formula 409 ALL PURPOSE spray cleaner. I am adding that because someone wrote recently that they bought another kind, which is BLUE and does not work to test bakelite. Once you have the correct formula, dip a Q-Tip swab in it, and rub the inside of the bangle gently. If yellow it's likely to be bakelite, if grey or other colors, it's not. Rinse the piece thoroughly and dry after. I've bought from sellers who said they got a positive response to 409 and all they got a response to was DIRT, not a funny situation if you paid good money for the piece. Even with experience, I've been fooled too many times, so I now ask what color was the swab if I have my doubts on an item being as advertised. The only color it should be is a shade of yellow, some say nicotine yellow, not being a smoker, I imagine the stain to be the color of a used cigarette filter, sometimes it's light yellow. Any yellow is a good sign that it's bakelite. European made bakelite stains darker and more reddish in my experience. They say some blacks and reds don't test, I found that possible in black, my reds have always tested.

METHOD 2: SIMICHROME POLISH
A more expensive method is using Simichrome Metal Polish. You can find it at the hardware store, or on ebay right here. A tube is a good investment, as it will shine up ALL your plastics, including Lucite, French Bakelite, and even hard plastic with seams! To test for bakelite with it, the pinkish color of the polish should turn yellow from rubbing it on the bakelite. Here you don't have to worry about rinsing, just buff and shine after testing and look at your cloth, yellow means bakelite, not yellow, probably not.

I'll do this today and report the results. I suspect bakelite though its definately not wood or bone at all.

[orvet]

Yes, I did mean Bakelite, which of course would probably place the knife pre-WWII, if I am remembering correctly.

Here are some other methods of testing for Bakelite:

1. Testing by Sound
Listen for the "clunk" when two pieces of Bakelite are tapped together. This very distinctive sound is often heard when two or more Bakelite bangles are worn at the same time. Try tapping two pieces of another type of plastic together, and compare the sound to two pieces of true Bakelite the next time you're out shopping where Bakelite is on display.

2. Testing by Feel
Consider the weight of a piece of plastic, especially jewelry. Bakelite feels heavier, more dense when compared to other types of plastics. Hold another piece of plastic in one hand, and a piece of Bakelite of approximately the same size in the other. You'll notice the heavier feel of the Bakelite.

3. Testing by Smell
Rub the item in question vigorously with your thumb until you feel the plastic heat up. Then, before it cools, take a whiff. A distinct chemical odor similar to formaldehyde will linger with most genuine Bakelite. This often takes a bit of practice. Some noses find better results when the piece of plastic is placed under hot running tap water before sniffing it. This test works well with Bakelite bangle bracelets.

4. Testing by Sight - Inspect the Piece Closely
Look for wear scratches and patina that new pieces of plastic don't normally exhibit. Also look for tiny chips on the edges of carving. Examine the piece with a jeweler's loupe or another type of magnifyer, if needed. Generally, an old piece of Bakelite will not be free of some minor scratching and wear, even though it is in excellent condition by a collector's standards.

From: http://antiques.about.com/od/bakelitean ... 041506.htm
I am usually successful with the smell test for Bakelite.
As a child we had a radio with a Bakelite housing around it.
It had a very distinctive order when the tubes got warm and heated the housing.

[Badger]

By smell and vision I believe it is bakelite.

[orvet]

By smell and vision I believe it is bakelite.

If it is Bakelite, I would think it was probably pre-WWII.
That is a guess, but during the war I think most TL-29s were made with wood handles.
I imagine the Bakelite was used on other defense items like radios, headphones, handsets for field phones, ect.

[Mossdancer]

Snagged a pretty nice one today. I really like the old bone. It is near as gnarly as stag now a days. The easy opener for the pen was a nice touch. The blades are all nearly full just really scratched. Over all a nice four line Camillus. I especially like the propeller shield
moss

[Miller Bro's]

Good looking knife Can`t beat the bone handles

[jerryd6818]

Speaking of not being able to beat the bone handles, gringo just sent this old High Carbon Steel USA Scout/utility/camper (didn't someone say Camillus made these for Sears?). She's been around the block a couple of times or twelve but those handles just mesmerize me and I can't find a fault in them anywhere. Hey experts. Is that Rogers green bone? I never thought I would fall in love with some old beat up knife, just because of the handles. Maybe I'll be able to find a bail for her somewhere and be able to put her back to close to original configuration. Thank you very much Donald. You're a peach and a generous one at that.

[tjmurphy]

Hey Moss, here's one just like yours less the shield; Camillus Army Air Corp Utility, iron bolsters, liners and pins, 4-line stamp. Pardon all the pics but I just had to show the wonderful jigged bone handles. Been cleaned a little, but not too bad.

[Mossdancer]

tjmurphy:
Great Knife, where. did you find the USAAC attribution cause that is nice to have. When you have a chance. I would like to see the Sheepsfoot cutting edge in relation to the kick and choil. After seeing yours I am near convinced that the one in mine is well worn down.
moss

[tjmurphy]

Hey Moss, first the picture:

My citations: http://www.scribd.com/doc/39088889/Cami ... 41-to-1946

Also, the 1946 Camillus catalog that I think Orvet has posted: http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... illuss.pdf
Scroll nearly all the way to the end.

[Mossdancer]

Thanks, the choil is not that extreme but all of it has been sharpened out of mine. Must have come from rocky country where the hooves were prone to getting roughed up making the use of the sheepsfoot to be quite often.
Nice photo's by the way.
moss

[jerryd6818]

T.J. no need to apologize for showing that knife more than once. Those handles are splendiferus. Rogers bone? Whadda ya think?

[Miller Bro's]

Rogers bone?

Yes

[tjmurphy]

T.J. no need to apologize for showing that knife more than once. Those handles are splendiferus. Rogers bone? Whadda ya think?

Thanks Jerry, I really like them too. Just sumpin bout old bone handled knives

[orvet]

Here is some info on Rogers Bone I got from an article by Bernard Levine.
I thought some of you might not have seen it when I posted it before.

The company that made Rogers Bone was Rogers Mfg. Co. of Rockfall, CT. They made bone fertilizer and other bone items as early as 1891. They started making bone knife handles about 1900. About WWI, they traded their fertilizer operation to Rogers & Hibbard for Rogers & Hibbard’s bone products business, including their bone handle making business. From then on Rogers Mfg Co was the biggest manufacturer of bone products in the USA, They also made toothbrush handles, combs, baby pacifiers, and bits for corncob pipes.

The Rogers Mfg. Co. name for what we today call “Rogers Bone” was believe it or not, “Rogers Stag.” They made small quantities of other jigging styles as well.

Rogers Mfg. Co. stopped selling bone knife handles in 1962. As you might imagine the plastics industry had pretty much eliminated the need for many of their bone products. When was the last time you went to the store and bought a new toothbrush with a bone handle, or a bone comb or baby pacifier?

*Info gleaned from an article by Bernard Levine. Knife World, November 1987.

[orvet]

The article by Bernard Levine said Rogers made more than one jigging pattern, and considering some of these knives could have logged 50 to 100+ years of pocket time, it is understandable that some are worn down to where they don’t look like the original jigging pattern.


Here are some of my Rogers Bone knives, or styles near to Rogers.
Listed from top to bottom & left to right.

Top left-
1-Pre-WW II 3 line tang stamp.
2 to 4- 4-line Camillus TL-29s
5 & 6- 3-line stamp with short line. #5 has reverse tang stamp of 72, but no reverse stamp on #6.
7- 4-line Camillus
8- MADE IN/USA –Probably Camillus or Imperial
9-MADE IN/U.S.A. –Also probably Camillus or Imperial
10-FORGED.U.S.A. –Probably Camillus


Top Right-
1-Schrade Cut Co
2-Pal Blade TL-29
3-Pal Cut Co
4-Wards
5-Kutmaster
6-Remington
7-Ulster
8-Ulster
9-Voos
10-High Carbon Steel-For Sears by Camillus
11- MADE IN/U.S.A. –Also probably Camillus or Imperial

[orvet]

Here are some more of my knives with Rogers Bone.
I am not positive if the 2nd Imperial is a variation of Rogers or not, but I think it might be.


Left column are all Camillus & the bottom one is a Sword Brand Camillus. It may not be Rogers Bone.

The right hand column is all Imperials. They all have the U.S.A. tang stamp on the tang of the small blade. I believe this means they were for the Army during WW II.


If anyone knows which patterns are Rogers and which aren’t, I would like to know.
Dimitri…….?



Now I have to find the rest of my Rogers bone knives.
I think I have a few more.