OddBall Belknap John Primble India Steel Works SHEFFIELD???

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:01 pm

I have owned a couple of oddballs before and a few Primble India Steel Works knives, but this one has me stumped.

Tang stamped:
JOHN PRIMBLE over
I.S.W.

I found an illustration of one in a reprint of a 1913 Belknap Hardware Catalog.
It states "No. 5615S-Stag, tip handle, half polish, 3' long", but does not list a purpose.
It is made from a solid piece of stag and has a backspring and has the same blade design as the one in the catalog.
The edge shows a little use, but it appears to be original and full. Tang stamp is sharp and clear.

At first I thought it may be a quill knife, but I have never seen/owned one with this shaped blade and ISW shows a quill knife, No. 5434W also.

One book I have says that India Steel Works knives were made by the George Wostenholm Cutlery firm in Sheffield for Belknap and held that contract and that ISW knives were made from a special imported steel from India. Other references I have found all agree the Primble ISW tang stamp was used around 1890 to 1940.
The blade shape does look like an older Wostenholm budding blade, but I have never seen one this small.

Any ideals, comments or seen another?

9ball

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:27 pm

9ball, Budding knife IMO looks like several old budding knives I have seen in the past.

Stockman

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:57 am

Very interesting 9-ball. I'll do some digging this weekend to see what I can find regarding the Wostenholm connection. My initial search was 'inconclusive'

s-k

knifeaholic · Post by **knifeaholic** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:07 am

As stockman said, looks like a budding knife...or it could be a corn knife.

Either way, that is one heck of a nice old knife.

I have never heard of the Sheffield connection - what book was that in?

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:08 am

A few things to add to the mix. If it was made in Sheffield and exported to the US after 1890 it should have England stamped on it somewhere. The handle almost looks like pressed horn. Any more photos available?

s-k

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:31 pm

Good morning Folks

,

There is no England on it.
I found the reference to Wostenholm in the book "The Standard Knife Collector's Guide Identification & Values 2nd" By Ritchie and Stewart, Copyright 1993.
I also found a reference to Primble India Steel Works, Sheffield in Goins, but only dates there.

I want to think I saw one in one of Sargent's Books (I only have 1 & 3), but could be wrong on that. That was sometime back.

It does not look like any pressed horn I have or have seen (I see it on straight razors more), but I will get a couple of photo's of the end to see grain, tang stamp and any other area that may help over the next couple of days. Both sides look the same.
If you need any more from different angles, just let me know. I will be in and out over the next couple of days, but will check my emails.
I want to get back to that "Older Knives" thread!

Thanks for your time.

9ball

Keith, I wished you would clean out your mail box. My emails keep bouncing back

Rick

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:11 pm

So far, I can not find anything that links Wostenholm or Sheffield with Belknap, Primble or the India Steel Works. I can't find any mention of specially imported steel from India being used in the Sheffield knife industry. That would be quite revolutionary in what was a very traditional industry during that time period. I can not find any mention of a factory named India Works. So I guess I am not much help at the moment. My hypothesis is that the India Steel Works Sheffield trademark mentioned in Goins book was created as a marketing ploy to link Primble's knives with the quality reputation of Sheffield. As you all know, many of my hypotheses do not pan out so I will continue digging. Another interesting mystery.

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:00 am

Thanks Folks both for time and comments.

Here is the rest of the pictures I promised.
Looks to me to be more like a solid piece of jigged bone than stag as described in reprint. Notice those pin heads also.

Knifeaholic brought up something I will add. The blade is thin and it is danty, more like a Corn 'Razor' not knife. I do not think it would hold up to budding bark or anything like that, it would have to be something soft. I would think that if much pressure was applied that it wold break the handle. JMO

Maybe I just do not know the technique. Am I wrong here???????

*I also went back to one of my other old collector books when Belknap was still in business and all I could fine was that John Primble India Steel Works knives were "made using a British steel exported from India."

BTW Knifeaholic; There is a section of Kinfolks pocket knives in here and that pocket knife you looked over for me awhile back is here, pattern # and picture confirm. They made it in stag also.
I may post it for future reference to that, see Notice.
It does have the popular Folding Hunter pattern in here. I have seen a couple of those on shaftBay.
It also shows 14 other folding patterns Kinfolks made. It sezs that Robeson made approximately 10 patterns in green bone then changed over to strawberry.

*1981 Price Guide To Collector Knives, 3th edition. By Parker & Voyles.
It is one that has the "Afro" Bruce on back.......now there is "History" fer ya.

9ball

NOTICE; God put me on Earth to accomplish a certain number of things; Right now I am so far behind I will never die.

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:44 am

just my observations, I doubt the bone would hold up to the heavy duty work, like a budding knife, the thin blade leads me to think it is a corn razor with a worn blade, VERY cool none the less!

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:35 am

This may be a potential lead.

The seller's description says made in Germany but clearly the mark says Wade & Butcher Sheffield. Seller has some Wade & Butcher razors so may have the pic mixed-up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOHN-PRIMBLE-INDIA- ... dZViewItem

These ones are German Made
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0067492779

http://cgi.ebay.com/Old-Straight-Razor- ... dZViewItem

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:01 pm

9ball

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:07 pm

Great looking stag on that one 9-ball. I too think it is more likely a corn knife. A grafting knife would have a thin flipper type end. Best wishes.

s-k

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:33 pm

Thanks for your help Folks

,

I just looked in the completed auctions over on shillbidBay and the blade design matches up. First one I have ever owned or noticed, corn knife that is.

You know; there is not alot of Primble info out there that I have seen.
I run across the older knives every so offen and see them at Parkers show. Ever one I have ever seen was a good knife. They made some older Stockmans with slanted bolsters I always liked.

Thanks again,

9ball

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:45 pm

Hi 9ball. Any recent progress to report on this issue? Sadly, I have nothing new to add. Just didn't want it to fade away.

s-k

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:04 pm

Hi Smiling-Knife

,

Not yet. Got to go to Gatlinburg next week, may stop by SMKW and see if I can find one in the displays.

9ball

BTW: You know anything or where to find anything about British Boy Scouts circa 1908?

Some must fade away.......

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:14 pm

Hi 9ball, Don't know much about it myself but here is a page that has lots of different links that may be of help.

s-k

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/index.htm

9ball · Post by **9ball** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:05 pm

Thanks, That looks to cover the early days. Lookin' for their first Official knife. I know the description, but would like to see a photo or drawing.

I will updated this if I find anything out about this topic. Especially about IWS.
Thanks again

9ball

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:13 pm

Please send me the description and I will keep my eyes open for it.

s-k

radicat · Post by **radicat** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:59 am

I'm thinking this knife is a quill knife with a blade shaped for scraping ink off before erasers were common. They were light duty with no other purpose. Levine said in his 3rd Ed. somewhere that A. Kastor imported for Belknap and that his brother Nathan was a buyer in Europe as well as operator of Germania Cutlery. He also reported that Wostenholm made John Primbles India Steel Works knives. I swear I'm going to index that book yet.

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:39 pm

I can't rule out your hypothesis radicat. Very interesting and thanks for the contribution. I have not been able to confirm the link between Bellknap and Wostenholm but, based on your input, the evidence may be mounting.

This link shows an e.g. of a a traditional ink erasing knife from Victorian times.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AN-OLD-ERASER-KNI ... dZViewItem

9ball's knife could be a desk knife of some sort, but quill sharpening knives usually had a sharp point for splitting the quill also. Just my understanding.

(edited for clarity)

s-k