Questions about a Keen Kutter 2878

[danno50]

I got this knife yesterday. I have some question as to whether or not the main blade is original to the knife. It is a Keen Kutter 2878, which Alvin Sellens says was made between 1921 and 1929. The master blade is a full 0.010" less thick than the backspring in the area where the backspring and the blade meet. Both blades, when open, sit considerably lower than the backsprings. The backsprings are also slightly higher than the liners when the blades are open. The main blade also appears to be short for the frame. The main blade appears full with possibly the original factory edge. The blade etch is faintly visible (could not get it to photograph). I have looked over the bolsters repeatedly with my handlens. they are evenly dinged everywhere and I cannot even see the pivot pin so if the blades have been replaced it was very well done and a long time ago. Could this knife have left the factory like this?

[danno50]

Two more photos.

Dan

[orvet]

I would think the blades were most likely from a different knife.
That doesn't look factory to me.

[danno50]

I agree Dale, it certainly does not look factory. The only reason I speculated that is because there is absolutely no evidence of the pivot pin (blade pin??) having been replaced.
Dan

[paulsvintage]

Danno, with the blade open the blade should look like a continuation of the back spring

[danno50]

Paul, I am very aware of what the back of a knife should look like. I know this knife looks wrong, however, there is absolutely no evidence on the bolsters that the knife has ever been apart. The bolsters are very evenly dinged up all over and with a 20X hand lens I cannot even find the pin location.
Thanks
Dan

[Unk]

Hi Danno,

Just for comparison sake.....

I have about 40-ish E.C. Simmons Keen Kutters, most of them ebony and cocobolo jack knifes. I just went through a few of them, and didn't find anything resembling the condition that you have on your knife. I do have a 60 3/4 where the tip of the master clip is falls at about the same length on the frame as yours. And it also has a little "ledge" to the back spring when opened (not nearly as big a "step" as yours, though).....however, the backsprings are flush with the frame when opened (and closed)....the springs do not sit proud like yours do.

[danno50]

Unk, thanks very much for taking the time to look at some of your Keen Kutters and post this response. I was hoping for comment from someone with a much larger collection of Keen Kutters than myself. The knife is not right but I think it has been like this for a very long time. The staining and patina on the blades match the backsprings very well. As an aside, I do have a 1980 Case elephant toenail, with the Bradford Bonanza etch, where the main blade and backspring are in exactly the same positions, when opened, as on the Keen Kutter I posted.
Paul, I apologize for the sarcastic tone of my response to your comment, it was uncalled for, I know you were just trying to help.

Thanks
Dan

[paulsvintage]

Dan, no problem at all

[Miller Bro's]

How about a better picture showing the whole knife with both blades open?

[danno50]

Some pictures of the whole knife with both blades open:

Dan

[orvet]

Perhaps a worker who wanted stronger springs, installed the wrong springs in the factory? A lunchbox special perchance?

I know some factories installed the springs and then ground the springs and handles down in the same operation. I have seen some knives from the Camillus factory closing that had the springs setting proud because they were not ground down yet.

Maybe this knife was taken from the line before the springs were ground down or it just missed that step and was passed through QC without being detected.

The workers in those days had Mondays and mornings-after-the-night-before just like workers in factories today.

Not a great explanation, but I can’t come up with a better one!

[knife-nut]

Could you post a close up picture of the backsprings with the blades closed? Just wondering if the springs are flush with the bolsters with the blades closed.

[ea42]

Dan, I think you have a mishmash of parts there. Those old equal end knives almost always had a long pull on the spear when it was accompanied by a pen blade. Possibly some parts were switched between a 2878 and an 02878? are your bolsters steel or n/s? (2878 were n/s, 02878 were steel) The blades just don't even come close to fitting the springs, in fact with that amount of material taken off the kick of the pen blade, I'd think the spring should actually ride below the frame. I wouldn't just judge the knife by how much pin shows, it's not that difficult to peen them well, and once the bolster is glazed smooth, any dents or dings from then on will be on a new canvas so to speak. Nothing wrong with the knife though, sure would make a dandy EDC!

Eric

[danno50]

Dale, thanks for the theory on the possible origin of this knife. You mention having Camillus knives with the spring sitting proud, I have 7 USA Schrade knives which I bought in the box from the store. All 7 of them have the spring on the master blade sitting proud, a couple of them nearly as high as this Keen Kutter. Knife-nut, here are a couple of pictures of the knife with the blades closed. The backsprings are right flush with the bolsters with the blades closed. Eric, I didn't notice the pic of the 02878 in Sellen's book before. The blade on my knife sure looks like the same as the master blade on the 02878. It is stamped 2878, but really looks like the master blade in the 02878 pic. My knife has n/s bolsters. Sellen's actually says the 2878 was the one with the steel bolsters and the 02878 has the n/s bolsters. I believe you are right that it is a mismatch of parts. However, looking at the knife in hand, I believe the mismatch was done at the start of the knife's life and not sometime later.

Dan

[msteele6]

Danno,

I don't think you can really read too much into details like pulls on knife blades. Remember, that many of these knives were manufactuerd over a pretty significant period of time and manufacturers might very well have changed manufacturing techniques like pull styles several times during such a period (to say nothing of the fact that many of the knives were contracted out to different companies). As an example, take a look at all the variations on Case knives that were made over time. In the case of Case knives the variations are well documented due to the large collector interest in Case knives. Other knives don't garner as much collector interest and are correspondingly less well documented. When you see pictures in books such as Sellens, he has the picture from only a single catalog. That catalog represents only a single year. The knives made before and after that catalog might very well have differed in many details (Sellens usually only mentions differences in shields).

EA42 has an excellent point on the kick of the master blade, usually the kick is ground down because the tip of the blade is above the frame in the closed position (in other words, the blade is sharpened down), the kick of your knife seems to have been ground down to a considerable extent (you can tell it's been ground down by looking at the kick and seeing how shiny it is compared to the rest of the material), however, I don't think that grinding the kick down would affect the position of the backspring in the closed position (or the open, for that matter). I certainly stand to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable, but I haven't noticed it on the knives I own that have a ground kick.

JMO

[danno50]

msteele, thanks for your comments. The kicks on both blades have been ground down significantly, something else in my inexperience I noticed but never realized the siginficance of. It is a nice old knife, solid, good snap and no blade play and I am fairly sure all original Keen Kutter parts, even if they are a bit mixed up. I believe I will take ea42's advice and sharpen it up and carry it, no more worrying about it's origins or why it is the way it is. Thank you kindly to everyone who posted about it.

Dan

[ea42]

Hey guys, just for future reference, grinding the kicks down substantially will affect the spring height. Think of the tang as a seesaw resting in the pivot pin. If you grind the kick down, the blade will pivot down (thus droping the point), and the cam end will rise a bit, which causes the spring to drop. This is why in production, the kicks are adjusted before the backs are hafted.
The subject knife should have dropped springs in the closed position, or at least the spring on the pen blade should be substantially lower than the spear considering the amount taken off the tang. Just something to keep an eye out for on future knives

Eric

[danno50]

Eric, thanks for the info. Any theory as to why the springs are not dropped in the closed position on the subject knife?

Thanks
Dan