18c or early 19c knife...

[John Carter]

I picked this up a few years ago and it was described at French Indian War/ frontier knife. The Blade is marked Goodalls I believe because were the "a" should be isn't exactly clear, but I believe it's Goodalls.

Any info at all would be very greatly appreciated. It's a beautiful knife and feels wonderful in the hand.

[FRJ]

Welcome to AAPK.
Nice knife. Could it possibly be Goodell?

[John Carter]

Welcome to AAPK.
Nice knife. Could it possibly be Goodell?

Hi- thanks for the reply. My mark has a distinct S on the end. And, this one I have looks to be much older that 1913.

[Miller Bro's]

It is a Goodell`s kitchen knife.

I am from the area where these were made and I can tell one from a mile away

How? That distinct Star inlaid into the handle. All the early Goodell knives had it.

The knife is not 18-19th century. Nice old knife but no where near as old as you were told.

[John Carter]

It is a Goodell`s kitchen knife.

I am from the area where these were made and I can tell one from a mile away

How? That distinct Star inlaid into the handle. All the early Goodell knives had it.

The knife is not 18-19th century. Nice old knife but no where near as old as you were told.

Looks to be mid-late 19c.

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Antique-1868-Goodell ... 0316704444

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... nfo-needed

http://www.petpeoplesplace.com/petstore ... 43174.html This link says Indian Fur Trade. Now that's actually what I was told when I purchased.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... IQA8w%253D

[Miller Bro's]

You bought a story, not a knife.

If you want to believe what they are telling you on fleabay and the other linked sites that are selling these as such, well I can`t help you

I will tell you what I will do, I will sell you one for $130, like the one that sold on fleabay with the fancy Indian fur trade story

[John Carter]

You bought a story, not a knife.

If you want to believe what they are telling you on fleabay and the other linked sites that are selling these as such, well I can`t help you

I will tell you what I will do, I will sell you one for $130, like the one that sold on fleabay with the fancy Indian fur trade story

I paid 50.00 for mine and like it just the same. Listen buddy, don't feel bad because you claimed to be from the area the knife was made but don't even know the century it was manufactured. And where do you get off telling someone you don't even know something like they bought a story and not a knife? That's a little rude an mean spirited don't you think? You sound like half a nut; like you'd enjoy someone else having a misfortune. What a disappointed guy you sound like.

I'll tell you what I will do... I'll donate that 130.00 to the 'Let the loser get a life foundation'.

[John Carter]

Welcome to AAPK.
Nice knife. Could it possibly be Goodell?

Yes I've learned it is a Goodell. Thanks for the reply. Greatly appreciated.

[coffeecup]

I paid 50.00 for mine and like it just the same. Listen buddy, don't feel bad because you claimed to be from the area the knife was made but don't even know the century it was manufactured.

(Sigh).

OK, just for fun. The patent on the knife--the one Mr. Levine shows in the link on another forum--establishes the earliest date at which the patent mark could have been used (1868). The patent was for the technique used to do the casting, not for any other aspect of the knife.

As Mr. Levine also points out, the marking on the blade is a deep etching technique that wasn't used by cutlery firms until the 1880s at the earliest. So now our earliest date is, say, 1880, right?

The company name--Goodell--is the key. Logic suggests that the company name wouldn't have been used prior to the start of the company, right? All of the information I've seen indicates the Goodell company didn't get started until about 1913-1914. It isn't likely the name was in use prior to that.

We don't start to see advertisements for the Star Hunter until about 1923, at least west of the Mississippi, and not many of them then. No one I know of has managed to find any mention of the company in any of the extant orders for or inventories of fur trade companies or reservation/treaty goods. And folks have looked, because the knife fits so well into what many people want to believe a fur trade knife should look like.

Some years ago I contacted the Antrim Historical Society; according to the nice lady who took the time to reply, the company started shortly before WWI, spent most of the war years largely doing government work, and didn't really become active in civilian cutlery until about 1919-1920. You could always contact them and ask if new information dating the company earlier has been found.

But until or unless some evidence is found indicating the company was founded earlier, and these knives were produced earlier, anyone who represents the knife as being anything other than a 20th century household butcher knife is wrong.

[John Carter]

I paid 50.00 for mine and like it just the same. Listen buddy, don't feel bad because you claimed to be from the area the knife was made but don't even know the century it was manufactured.

(Sigh).

OK, just for fun. The patent on the knife--the one Mr. Levine shows in the link on another forum--establishes the earliest date at which the patent mark could have been used (1868). The patent was for the technique used to do the casting, not for any other aspect of the knife.

As Mr. Levine also points out, the marking on the blade is a deep etching technique that wasn't used by cutlery firms until the 1880s at the earliest. So now our earliest date is, say, 1880, right?

The company name--Goodell--is the key. Logic suggests that the company name wouldn't have been used prior to the start of the company, right? All of the information I've seen indicates the Goodell company didn't get started until about 1913-1914. It isn't likely the name was in use prior to that.

We don't start to see advertisements for the Star Hunter until about 1923, at least west of the Mississippi, and not many of them then. No one I know of has managed to find any mention of the company in any of the extant orders for or inventories of fur trade companies or reservation/treaty goods. And folks have looked, because the knife fits so well into what many people want to believe a fur trade knife should look like.

Some years ago I contacted the Antrim Historical Society; according to the nice lady who took the time to reply, the company started shortly before WWI, spent most of the war years largely doing government work, and didn't really become active in civilian cutlery until about 1919-1920. You could always contact them and ask if new information dating the company earlier has been found.

But until or unless some evidence is found indicating the company was founded earlier, and these knives were produced earlier, anyone who represents the knife as being anything other than a 20th century household butcher knife is wrong.

Thanks for the info Coffeecup.

Still not sure what all the sighs and sarcastic similes are for. I was just inquiring about a knife I have. When told the age being 20c, I just offered some links to pages indicating/representing 18c. I thought this would be interesting to show since we were discussing age and origin of this knife. Unfortunately, Miller seemed to have taken this as a challenge/attack of some sort and decided to reply sarcastically and a little mean spirited IMHO. Especially when he made the following two comments:

You bought a story, not a knife.

I will tell you what I will do, I will sell you one for $130, like the one that sold on fleabay with the fancy Indian fur trade story

That is why I said what I said.

To me there is nothing more frustrating than forums that exhibit that type small mindedness. Forums are supposed to be free and open exchanges where no one should be afraid to offer a differing opinion, whether it be right or wrong. That's how we all learn. I've seen plenty of forums out there that devolve into that kind of place and it's an unfortunate thing.

To be honest I don't know Miller, and by 'know' I mean have exchanged with him in stings in the past. But if he, or anyone else, is the type to try to stifle opinions or info that is contradictory, again whether they are right or wrong, then I don't want their replies. To me that's not conducive to learning. And, if I get flamed for having said this then obviously I've picked the wrong forum community, and that's okay too. At least I found out early and I'll find another one. But based on your reply coffeecup, I suspect that I've prob picked one of the better forums, because your reply indicates a person that has a learned and expert opinion. Not blowing smoke either; again my honest opinion.

Sincerely, thanks for all replies and info offered in good spirit so far. Any other opinions on this cutlery is appreciated. I'm not an expert myself but this knife seems to be very well made. For an object as utilitarian as a kitchen knife, that would have obviously seen some use, to have lasted so long in such fine condition, must have been well manufactured.

I'd like to read more about Goodell, but do have an interest in Fur Trade era cutlery. Any suggestions for reading aside from: Indian Trade Relics Identification & Values (Artifacts and Collectibles) by Lar Hothem?

[coffeecup]

To clarify a couple of points before getting into bibliographies:

"Bought the story, not the knife:" You stated you bought the knife, with an undocumented attribution to the fur trade. To some extent this indicates that the historical attribution contributed to the value you placed on the knife when purchasing. This is what we mean when we say someone has "bought the story, not the knife." It isn't an attack in any way, just a reminder that (in the opinion of the writer) the purchaser has placed too great a value on the story and failed to consider the actual details of the knife. I think everyone does this sometimes.

As for the sighs and sarcastic smileys . . . as we've seen in this case, some posters get defensive when the answer isn't what they want. For those replying, there is a cognitive dissonance between the desire to help someone who shares a common interest and the reality that it is likely to devolve into abuse heaped on the person who answers. AAPK is a nice place to hang out, in large part because the community generally agrees not to subject ourselves to this. As with any forum, it is important to observe and understand the conventions of the forum before taking offense. Neither Miller Bros nor I meant any offense with our smileys or sighs. (If I meant to offend, I'd not have edited my first reply before posting it.)

I don't know of any sources about Goodell's star-handled knives in particular; there have been a couple of monographs circulate over the years addressing various points about their production but I don't know if they were ever published. Again, I'd refer you to the Antrim Historical Society for possible further information.

The study of fur trade cutlery is an advanced topic best addressed after acquiring some general knowledge of the history of the cutlery trade. To the greatest extent possible stick with primary and secondary sources, avoiding tertiary and fantasy "sources" like ebay listings. For the background information leading to the study of fur trade cutlery, to start I'd suggest:
The Cutlery Story by Bement
Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings by Goins
On the Knife Edge, the Inside Story of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry by Jenkins and McClarence
The Cutlery Trades by Lawrence
Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values (preferably 3rd or 4th edition)
Knifemakers of Old San Franscisco by Levine
The History of the John Russell Cutlery Company by Merriam et al.
New England Cutlery by Pankiewicz
Damned Bad Place, Sheffield; An Anthology of Writings About Sheffield Through the Ages by Pybus
Under Five Sovereigns by the Rodgers Company

After consuming those, start looking at old records (inventories, orders, account books, etc) for manufacturers and other information. Look at the remains of knives recovered from various archaeological sites, being very careful about the dates attributed to the knives (the presence of a manufactured artifact only establishes the earliest possible date, not the date of deposition). Then start reading and buying every hardware and cutlery catalog and cutlery company history you can find (reprint or original).

While you are doing this, study at every knife of the period you can (not just butcher knives or "trade knives") in order to understand the stylistic conventions and construction details of the day. One very approach is to find a specimen and learn everything you can about it, then move on to the next.

[knives-are-quiet]

Post edited for inflammatory content.

By an AAPK Administrator.

[John Carter]

You bought a story, not a knife.

If you want to believe what they are telling you on fleabay and the other linked sites that are selling these as such, well I can`t help you

I will tell you what I will do, I will sell you one for $130, like the one that sold on fleabay with the fancy Indian fur trade story

Post edited for inflammatory content.

By an AAPK Administrator.

I kinda got that feeling already Knives are quiet, I hear you you loud and clear. Thanks for the heads up. btw- LoL to the man behind the curtain observation; your pretty perceptive.

[John Carter]

Wow. It's like that huh.

[orvet]

Hi John Carter,
I know you are a new member here. Sometimes it takes a while to understand the personality of the different members.
Miller Bros. is one of the most knowledgeable members we have on older knives, and while no one knows everything about every knife, he knows more than most people, even many longtime collectors. He never ceases to amaze me with the breadth & depth of his knowledge.

You got a response to your question from someone who is extremely knowledgeable in the knives about which you asked. Then you questioned his veracity and knowledge.
I can tell you if that had happened other forums the answer you received would have likely been quite unpleasant. I have seen Bernard Levine make far more terse comments than that when someone doubted what he had to say.

People ask questions on forums because they want to know something. If they really want the truth, they need to be able to accept it and not argue that the person who has taken his time to answer them. When you answer as many questions as Miller Bros does, it become a big waste of time when he has to prove he is right.

You got an answer from someone who knows a lot about the subject, actually from two people. The bottom line is that he is probably right. It happens to us all if we buy many knives.

I hope you enjoy AAPK, there are a lot of folks here who really know there stuff!

[John Carter]

Hi John Carter,
I know you are a new member here. Sometimes it takes a while to understand the personality of the different members.
Miller Bros. is one of the most knowledgeable members we have on older knives, and while no one knows everything about every knife, he knows more than most people, even many longtime collectors. He never ceases to amaze me with the breadth & depth of his knowledge.

You got a response to your question from someone who is extremely knowledgeable in the knives about which you asked. Then you questioned his veracity and knowledge.
I can tell you if that had happened other forums the answer you received would have likely been quite unpleasant. I have seen Bernard Levine make far more terse comments than that when someone doubted what he had to say.

People ask questions on forums because they want to know something. If they really want the truth, they need to be able to accept it and not argue that the person who has taken his time to answer them. When you answer as many questions as Miller Bros does, it become a big waste of time when he has to prove he is right.

You got an answer from someone who knows a lot about the subject, actually from two people. The bottom line is that he is probably right. It happens to us all if we buy many knives.

I hope you enjoy AAPK, there are a lot of folks here who really know there stuff!

Thanks- I think I have a clearer understanding of this forum now.

BTW- this knife is pictured in the book "Indian Trade Relics Identification & Values" by Lar Hothem.

[Roush428r]

One reason that some of the comments may have been made is that the first eBay seller referenced is well known for selling stories that often have little to do with the actual object he's selling. He has a long history of very broad definitions for words like "indian, trade, bowie, old, civil war" etc. Just read a few of his descriptions and you'll quickly see why folks might be sceptical if he's used as a "source".

[Owd Wullie]

BTW- this knife is pictured in the book "Indian Trade Relics Identification & Values" by Lar Hothem.

First off, Hello and welcome to AAPK.

I have studied the Fur Trade era and used to buy and sell "old West", "fur trade" and trade beads. That being said, I am NO expert on that stuff even though I made enough money to finance my hobby and have a lot of fun meeting some great people ( and a few boneheads as well).

I will say this, there is as much mis-information about that era as there is information.

To me that knife does not look "fur trade". Furthermore, both Miller Brothers and Coffee Cup are two VERY knowledgeable individuals who have NEVER attempted to lead anyone astray as to the value or origin of their knives. I value their opinions and their candor. Even the first ebay link you posted gives a patent date of 1868 which is about 20 some odd years AFTER the generally accepted end of the fur trade era.

I agree with what has been said by the two gentlemen mentioned above.

There is an unbelievable amount of combined knowledge available simply for the asking at this forum. It matters not if you have but one post or ten thousand. All you have to do is ask and then read and decide for yourself.

I'd hazard a guess that about all of us here that gather, collect, acquire, hoard, admire, and love knives have been burned at least once if not more buying something we hoped was more than it actually was. I have been. I didn't necessarily like it, but I learned from it.

If you truly believe you have a "fur trade" relic, more power to you.

I will say THANKS to Miller Bros and Coffee Cup for enlightening me on your knife. I learned something tonite.

Sincerely,
Willie

[petekuhn]

I know this is old thread but here is a picture of knife when he went to Cuba. He was in the indian wars before that. Anyhow this is right around 1898 I think

[btrwtr]

Very nice Pete! Great pictures!

[Reverand]

A beautiful old knife, and great provenance on it!!

[Bushfire]

For what it's worth I'm fascinated by the F&I war era particularly from the French perspective. This is my modern replica of a french boucheron from the period. The gentleman in PA that made it has an extensive range of excavated knives from the 18th century forts and such. My knife was based off a knofe recovered from Fort Ticonderoga (formerly Carillon).

It's not perfect, which makes it perfect. It is a trade knife would be the 18th century.

[1967redrider]

For what it's worth I'm fascinated by the F&I war era particularly from the French perspective. This is my modern replica of a french boucheron from the period. The gentleman in PA that made it has an extensive range of excavated knives from the 18th century forts and such. My knife was based off a knofe recovered from Fort Ticonderoga (formerly Carillon).

It's not perfect, which makes it perfect. It is a trade knife would be the 18th century.

20230121_000215.jpg

Very cool, thanks for posting. Does the maker have a website?

[Bushfire]

For what it's worth I'm fascinated by the F&I war era particularly from the French perspective. This is my modern replica of a french boucheron from the period. The gentleman in PA that made it has an extensive range of excavated knives from the 18th century forts and such. My knife was based off a knofe recovered from Fort Ticonderoga (formerly Carillon).

It's not perfect, which makes it perfect. It is a trade knife would be the 18th century.

20230121_000215.jpg

Very cool, thanks for posting. Does the maker have a website?

No he doesn't, also doesn't really do social media.

John Patterson is his name, if interested I can pass on his details.

I've also got a siamois friction folder from him to complement my f&I war kit. It's in beech which was most common for a folder of the time.

[Bushfire]

This is a recent knife I got along with a shot pouch. This setup is more for my American frontier and longrifle side, not French related.

Maker is Nathan Allen, it took a scary sharp edge and is going to be a great hunting knife.