A question that makes a statement.

[BrokenCamillus]

I found (located in my basement) this knife a few weeks back and I finally got around to giving it a cleaning. I remember when this knife had handle slabs on it, they were the pressed steel or aluminum with a plastic insert that made it look as though there were bolsters. The tabs broke off of them and I don't remember what happened to them, but I kept the bones of the knife.

Now I was wondering if anyone can tell me who made this knife. I'm thinking it was an Imperial, or old United Cutlery. I know it wasn't anything except a pocket knife.

Now for the controversy. If this is what U.S. makers had decided to make to save money on materials and provide an affordable knife to the masses, why are the knives made in China considered poor quality? Once again, I just want to look at the history not politics. It was obvious that U.S. makers were failing to provide the products the consumer wanted until something turned them back to making solid products.

You don't have to answer the controversial question if you just want to identify the knife, and one last thing I'd like to know is what it looked like, I think it was a yellow handle, but I can't remember, and what can I do to salvage this knife for the future. (I know, why bother? Well, it is a partially surviving example of what we shouldn't do again.)

Thanks for looking.

Al

[jonet143]

can't id the knife. maybe a colonial. are the tangs blank other than u.s.a.?

which u.s. makers are you refering to? not all produced shell knives.

[El Lobo]

OK then...

Let's cut through the marketing crap and the B.S.

The Chinese have sworn to destroy America.....Got it?

Many of us think that is a good enough reason to think twice about our purchases. It may not be of consequence to a lot of folks, but to many of us it sounds like a real threat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with knives made in other countries...Spain, Germany, Taiwan, etc. But buying from your sworn Communist enemy seems to be of questionable intelligence, IMO.

So, buy what you like...be happy with whatever the quality...but understand the plan of the Chinese Government.

Sorry about the rant. But jump in here and defend the slave workforce of the Chinese, if you can. The knives are inexepensive because the workers are on the cheap.

Would you work like that??

As always, JMO.


Bill

[jfarmer]

My feelings exactly el lobo. I'm sick of all the chinese junk being shipped here.

James

[SFC ADP]

(Applause for El Lobo)

Granted there are some cheaply made american knives as well. I just finally got rid of an old "Ideal" Pocket knife that was complete crap. But I still made more on that piece of crap poorly made US knife than a brand new Rough Rider.

Also some knive historically that are made from cheaper or low grade materials, may go along with historical events of the time. Depressions, Wars, etc.
I still have some old Imperials that were cheaply made, but am willing to bet they will always be worth more than Chinese knives.
Just my opinion on the subject!

[BrokenCamillus]

Jonet, the only markings are U.S.A on the tangs. The markings are very clear in the large pictures when you click on the pictures in this post. I also should have said some U.S. knife makers instead of infering that all knife makers were making these knives.

Once again, I asked to keep politics out of this. Simply put. Look at this knife. Would you buy a knife made like this today??

Isn't a knife with thicker scales, real bolsters, and real handle material more acceptable than the way this knife was made?


<<<NOTICE: only for those interested.>>>

For the record. I am a Veteran. (7 years regular military) I know that Communists and Muslims want to destroy the current world order. However, the Chinese Communist are at least open to free trade. If you remember your history Hong Kong was a British colony/protectorate until 1997. See: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/hk.html

My military knowledge tells me that the complete destruction of all enemies is the prefered manner of dealing with threats to our soveriegn nation. So let's Nuke China, Russia, the Middle East, South America, and the rest of the world where there are any tensions. Then we can make slave laborers out of the survivors and Americans will never have to work for themselves again. (After all, we'll have to provide everything else for them after destroying their countries anyway....See WWII)

<<<Continue with caution>>>

That said, if the United States craftsman wants to survive he will have to compete in this global economy. He must make a product that can be bought by the working man for a reasonable price. His company must find a way to pay salaries, and everything else required under current regulations to continue in business while selling their product worldwide.

I asked for a simple discussion of quality. Can you consider where we, or more appropriately the United States cutlery industry, might be today if knives like the one I'm asking about had continued to be made and became the standard? I mentioned China because they are making knives to our specifications, even if they haven't come up to your quality standards, that are afforable for most Americans. This competition causes U.S. companies who want to make these types of knives to make changes and provide a product people want at a price they can afford instead of making the type of knife we are discussing in this thread.

I only get into this because, as you're so fond of saying, I have the right to say what I want about a subject, and educating people is usually better than pounding them over the head with platitudes.

<<<Almost safe>>>

Now, has the company that made this knife gone under? Why did they fail? Could it be from making knives like these?

I own two Opinels and although they are affordable they are not in league with our traditional style of knives. Should the United States decide to make knives like the Opinel to survive?

One last thing.

Bill and James.

I have never told anyone they should buy a Chinese made knife, and if I do then they are free to consider the political ramifications for themselves if anyone in this country still gives a s&*!. I'm so sorry for having offended your delicate sensibilities. Instead of complaining about politics in this thread why don't you tell me what you know about this knife or you can continue to show everyone here that you know nothing about the topics of interest here. Those being, what can we learn from this knife?

<<<END. You are now safe>>>

[PA Knives]

Gentlemen,

As moderator of this forum, I caution you to keep the subjects limited to discussions about knives and the "FUN" of the hobby. Please refrain from political comments. Those should be posted in the general comments forum. Our goal is to keep this area for enjoyment and not for negative feelings however right they may be. I would trust that all would understand and abide by those rules of courtesy. Thank you all.

[El Lobo]

I apologize if anyone here thought that my post was directed at them...as it was meant to be an expression of my personal feelings about a controversial subject.

On to the knife in question...

Looks like a Colonial to me. Maybe it was an advertising knife? Manufactured to meet a certain price point...in a lineup of different price points. Most likely near the bottom of the level of craftmanship with which they were able to produce cutlery...but not the only product they sold/sell.

Bill

[SFC ADP]

If memory serves me correct, didn't Novelty Knife Co. do alot of knives with just the USA stamp on them?

[El Lobo]

SFC ADP and all,

Could be Novelty, I don't know.

I do know that Colonial made some fantasy Coca-Cola knives.....marked Coca-Cola on the handles, and only U.S.A. on the tang.

Just postulating here.

Bill

[Turkey Creek Tom]

You knife brings back memories of my childhood. In the decade of the fifties I probably had several of these knives. My father called them "boys knives" because they were inexpensive and we boys lost lots of knives. I remember some of the big whittling fellows we showed the little two blade yellow handle knives to and they all just grinned and said "a little tin handle knife". It looked like the sides were snapped on and it appeared they were made of tin or some metal with a yellow (mostly) plastic added. We boys could never get them real sharp and if memory serves me right, some of them had blades that would bend rather than break. I seem to think the ones I had were made by Colonial. Thanks for the memories of my boyhood knives!

[El Lobo]

Ok,

It took me awhile to find this knife...and I apologize for the pics, but they are what they are.

This knife shows no bolsters, and no pins...just thin celluloid strips overlaid on the scales. Maybe a similar style to the one in question.

The large blade says Ambassador/U.S.A.
The small Blade says only U.S.A. (I know, but just trust me on that).

It was made by Colonial. It is an inexpensive American made knife. But not the only example of what Colonial could make...though they seem to be known for inexpensive knives...as are a few other U.S. manufacturers.

Do I think this should be the ordinary, typical example of a pocket knife for today's market?

Not for my money...but to each his own.

Posted for discussion.

Bill

EDITED:
For an additional thought.

[jfarmer]

camillus it seems to me that you enjoy coming here and posting your 'loaded' questions to see who all you can get stirred up. Why do you want to question how intelligent someone is when they have a different opinion than you? Anyway, it looks like El Lobo has came up with an answer to your question. I would like to add that I have had some Ideal knives and some knives that were just stamped USA and they were identical. I have also had some Colonial knives and some USA knives that were identical as well. And yes, they were very cheaply made. At the time, we had a choice of whether we wanted a cheaply made American knife or a nice quality made American knife. Those choices have all but disappeared.

James

[jonet143]

inexpensive shell handled knives made in the 20s, 30s, 40s, cannot be compared to knives made in china today. apples and oranges.

[BrokenCamillus]

I had forgotten the Ambassador name, and I think this may have been made by them, but I remember it had metal showing on both ends like false bolsters instead of a fully covered shell as shown in El Lobo's pictures.

I wish I could project the image I see in my mind onto this knife and then everyone might be able to identify it.

Now to cover the other part of the original question. Where did Ambassador or Colonial come from and where did they go?

I do want to say I know this knife was not a novelty knife. I was the only owner of this knife and bought it, as close as I can remember, in 1975. The scales fell off of it by 1980-82. Maybe that can help identify a maker from that time period, although it could have been made earlier.

I agree it was probably a boys knife. I think I paid $4.00 to $6.00 for it new. It is only because I have owned this knife since new that I can be so certain about some details and yet clueless about the maker.

I made a picture of what I think I remember the handle slabs looking like.

Maybe it will help.


P.S. I apologize to the moderators and anyone who thinks I am loading the content of my post. Maybe I should use Japan as an example of earlier knife makers who helped influence the way pocket knives were being made and put an end to the slide in quality of low priced pocket knives. I am under the impression though that Japan's knives of the 80s were not known for any kind of quality and were not inexpensive. I do know that I never bought a Japanese made knife. Should that become a topic?

[SFC ADP]

So let me try and visualize what your describing, as I think I have a couple of these laying around:
Pressed tin Attached to the liners, with a plastic type "Wrap" that went over the tin, in this case yellow.
If I am thinking along the same lines, where the shield is, there would have been a hole in the wrap for the shield to come through, as the shield just would have been pressed in the tin as well.

As for Colonial Knives, I believe they are still producing knives... something I could research when I get home. I am not familiar with the name Ambassador, so could not answer that one.

EDIT: Colonial Knife Co. History Link
http://www.colonialknifecompany.com/history.htm

[BrokenCamillus]

SFC ADP, that is exactly what I'm talking about. You hit the nail right on the head. The slabs were shaped just as you described them with the plastic material cut out for the false shield as well.

I hope we're going to have an answer for this very soon now.

Thanks for helping narrow this down.

[El Lobo]

Ambassador was/is a brand belonging to Colonial. Probably not used any longer because it became known as an inexpensive knife brand, or because of the Colonial reorganization by the Paolantonio's.

Bill

[jonet143]

we have narrowed it down to a couple of makers but ...... without the scales, it will be very hard to go further. unless you have another example in the basement with the scales. someone could probably id the frame. someone who collects these old shell knives.

[glennbad]

I am sure I have something like this in my hoard...

I will check tonight if I remember...

Glenn

[agteacher2]

Here is an Imperial shell knife that I have. It looks a lot like what you posted. But no USA. I do have several Colonial knives with the USA on a secondary blade, but all of them are are marked Colonial on a main blade.

I guess this really didn't answer your question but there it is anyway.
Jeff

[glennbad]

Okay, I think I got this one...

I think the assumption that this is a Colonial or sub company of Colonial is correct.

I present Exhibit A:



These knives are both Colonials. What makes them different than standard shell handle knives are how the handles are attached. Most of you probably already picked up on this, it took me comparing my Colonials to BC's knife to see it though.

Most shell handles knives, such as Ideal and Imperial, have tabs at the ends of their shells. Colonials are different in that their shells have tabs attached underneath. Those are the slots in the knife body that kinda bump out. This allows the tabs to be bent in and secure the shell to the knife liners, without affecting the operation of the blades. However, this design allowed those recesses to be great gathering places for dirt, lint, etc. Also, because the "bolsters" were not attached at the end, these got bent out alot. Not the best improvement on design.

Hopefully, this info helps...

Glenn

[El Lobo]

Thanks Glenn,

I think that helped make things much more clear.

Bill