What gives a knife its value... up for discussion

[SFC ADP]

Here is a question that has been burning at my mind for the past few months: What gives a knife its value, or what makes an expert an expert?

The 1st part of the question refers to all these price guides I read. Some guides have the same knife listed at different prices. Not a HUGE difference, but anywhere from $10-$20. Now I know this is based on the author's opinion who is the so-called "expert".
But sometimes I am suprised at some knives I come across, and the Company that made the knife could have been closed for 75+ years. The quality of the knife is great, well built, yet may only bring in $40. Buy a Brand new knife such as Case, and it's value exceeds that of an antique "rare or semi-rare" knife. That is one factor that puzzles me. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are the antique Case/Remingtons/Etc that can be up in the $1000+ price range. They carry the "name brand" alot of collectors look for. Watching some of these big name collectibles go on e-bay, sometimes the prices can be shocking what they sell for. Especially the Counterfeit ones that we catch, and identify here on the site!
Now as for me, I like looking for old off brand names, they are well built, if not just as good as some of these big names. An example would be Challenge Cutlery. I like picking these up when I find them. They are put together very well, and I like their workmanship. Marshall & Wells (Zenith) knives, which may have been contracted out, are a well made knife that I have always been impressed with. These old well made knives can often be picked up for less than $100. Challenge I can usually pick up in the $20-$60 price range. Every once in awhile a rare pattern will pop up like a coke bottle or Doctors knife, and may shoot up into the few hundred dollar range but it is rare.
Now a few things I have read and know affect a knifes Value. Looking at Pattern, Handle Material, Condition, and of course manufacturer. So a puzzleing part for me is lets say you have 5 knives in front of you: all made of the same materials, same pattern number, same condition (for example sake we will rate them all mint) and they all were made in the 1920's. Now we have blacked out the manufacturer name, just by looking at these 5 knives, which one is worth more than the others? Now if we took a look at the manufacturers, that plays a significant role in the value.
Of course we have to look at the rarity factor, but lets say these "mint" condition knives are on avg about the same...
Now of course there is always the supply and demand factor that always affects prices. Alot of people want a certain name because they have been mentally conditioned that it is a great knife, or a highly valued knife. But who sets these standards of quality?
So then we get to the knife "experts"...
What makes a person an expert in the field of knife collecting?
Bernard Levine always says he is an expert because he knows what he knows, and he knows what he does not know, and he knows the difference, or something along those lines. Which is a respected opinion, and I myself have turned to his knowledge base for info on knives. But not even Mr. Levine has all the answers, and in the realm of knife collecting there is such a HUGE number of knives and knife companies, and of course it is the oldest tool around still in use today, so we are lookng at something that has been around since almost the age of man first started. So for one person to know it all... I think we know it is impossible. So we turn to those that have an extensive knowledge base. Alot of it based on fact, some based on opinion, but we turn to those that we know or think they know more than us on the subject. Its not like there is a college class where a person can go get their PHD in Knife collecting. I once read a couple of articles on authors of knife price guides, and how sometimes they are guilty of inflating prices of certain knife brand names, because they may have been affiliated with them. I think Jim Parker may have been accused of this, but don't quote me on that. So at what point does one declare, I am an expert on this subject, and I am going to write a book about knives, and I am going to set prices that can be used as a standard for knife collectors to use?

I know this is a long winded essay here, but just some thoughts I had today, and would like to get some others input on the subject, or their thoughts and ideas as well.
I look forward to your replies!

[PA Knives]

HI!

I found your post to me very to the point and well thought out. Nice job. The portion that I wanted to comment on mainly is one that hits home. "I am going to write a book" Exactly the train of thought that I had years ago. I have found that most collectors and so-called experts have the dates and info wrong on Pennsylvania knives. I originally thought my book would be on PA knive but changed my mind and decided that Tidioute would be a great way to learn the ropes of knife writing. I could spend considerable amount of time telling you how I got to this point but won't bore you now. Even yesterday I was reading Price's collector knife book and found he had Tidoute all WRONG. Where did they get their info. I beleive that when one person writes about a company the next one uses it and embellishes it slightly and the cycle begins. Remember fourth grade and when the teacher whispered in your ear a phrase and when it finally got to the last person it was barely recognizeable. I think this is what happens and as time marches on, more is lost. That is why I am trying very hard to only state facts that I can prove. If I speculated, I said that was the case. Do I want to be an expert on Pennsylvania knives? YES, am I "NO" I just know a lot about them and more than most, but every day someone teaches me something I didn't know. If an expert is one that knows a lot but will always learn more, I am that. I don't beleive that is the true definition of an expert though. Already I think that my book will bring forth more information and no doubt will need to be updated in a several years to reflect new information. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe I will be like an artist and no one will recognize my work until I am gone? I am taking all my knives with me so don't wait for the auction. I am sure that god has an original Union Razor Toe nail that I need for my collection

I really like to old companies. If your looking for profit, go with the well known names. I am one of only a few that perfers the odd companies and the rare stamps. I will chose what is behind door number three!

I'll take "knife companies you never heard of from Pennsylvania for $500"

[SFC ADP]

PA,
I like your reply, but for the record: When it comes to knives and history, you can never bore me!
I look forward to your book, and your info on the PA knives!

[stockman]

Hello SFC ADP, I liked what you had to say, about collecting. I also like knives that most people don't collect Challenge, Zenith, Pacific hardware and steel, H&B ect. Don't get me wrong I like Remingtons, Case, Winchester And the likes of these, but not to check these others out is missing alot of wonderful knives.
I also like the way PA is doing the work to be certain of his facts for his new book. It should be well received, I'am waiting for my author signed edition. Hope he lets us know in advance so we won't have a long wait.
You also talked about experts I was once told a expert was a person three counties away from home.

Stockman

[Roger - 50/2050]

Hello knifer friends,

I really like this thread & will be following it to see what others feel on knife experts & price guides! ....Bernard Levine has written a few books & knows what he knows because of his association with other knifers now & in the past so myself, I really don't count him as an expert! ....I feel & it is my own personal opinion that the late & great Jim Parker was a knife expert in the W.R. Case & Sons line of cutlery as well as Tony Foster, Jim Sargent & of course Perry Miller, all four gentlemen have made knife collecting & the hobby their life & I have not for one second been sorry for taking their advice in regards to any knife I was counseled on for my collection, there are others that are on their way to becoming knife experts like PA, Scott King & Bill Bledsoe just to name a few that know the know that I respect & trust when going after the Elephant Toe/Sunfish patterns! ....As far as price guides go I look at them in a way to figure out what I would pay for any piece I had an interest in like this, I would use the price posted in the guide & divide by two to figure out a good ball park offer price I would give for a knife I wanted to buy! ....Over inflated, yes, many of them are! A good example of this is the 2001 price guide for the Case Classic book "The Long Haul" as many of the value prices on these knives are really projected values for the years to come in my eyes, now through the years since the release of the knives in the Case Classic program some of the knife patterns value prices in that guide are rapidly approaching a reality today! ....Lets touch on market value verses book value, what do ya'll feel about this? It is my personal opinion that the knifers out there in the market place give any said piece its true value with supply & demand in mind which is sometimes much higher than book value, now keep in mind that market values go up & down like the stock market does!



"Texas collector", Roger - 50/2050

[SFC ADP]

Couple of very good points you bring up Rodger!
One thing that makes me wonder is, the people you had mentioned that we as collectors rely on currently for knife expertise (Sargent, Foster Miller) they will not be around forever. That is where I wonder who the next great knife experts will be, and set the stage for knife collecting.
Another note on the price guides, one opinion I have is the key word... guide. They are just a guide and not the rule to collecting, as it does boil down to what is the consumer willing to pay for a certain Item. One thing I use to help me track prices is I watch certain knives I am interested in, and it gives me an idea of how much I should spend and a certain brand or pattern. The attached photo is the spread sheet I use, and Challenge is the example. I have not figured out book prices yet, but I can look and say, ok I shoul dpay around this much for said knife.
Now I like what David (AKA: PA) is doing. He is researching and putting alot of effort into one paticular knife company, which with the information he provides based on his research we all can learn alot about one paticular company. Now if his book is well received, and read by many, Tidioute, and Union Razor Co. Knives could sky rocket in value, as many may want to own one for their very own. Information like that posted from some who puts in the time and effort to become very knowledgable in a subject I would hope can make huge impacts in the market. I will be honest, until I read Davids article here on AAPK I never have heard of Tidioute knives. After I read, I went on the hunt to own one, which I may have a fake, or a refurbished one, I may send it to PA and let him decide, because I trust his opinion. I now know here is someone that holds a ton of knowledge in a small piece of the Huge Knife Collecting pie.
I think some of the smaller older companies could be considered more collectible, if more information could be done on them. Unfortunatly some of these companies came and went long before any of us were born. And knife collecting was not the hobby that it is today, so much information has been lost through time.
Just more on this topic, and I like the direction it is going, I like to see others outlooks in our hobby!

Edit: I added Schrade as well, as I have a few prices there for Like knives to show Averages. The ones in red I purchased. To better view them, click on the picture and maximize the screen.

[BrokenCamillus]

What gives a knife it's value.....the price of materials used, the cost of labor, and the added profit at the retailers end. Oh, you want to know why it's worth a particular price? Because someone wants it.

expert - An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of knowledge, technique, or skill whose judgment is accorded authority and status by the public or their peers. (Wikipedia.com) See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert

expert - 2 : having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience. (Merriam-Webster.com) See: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expert

Of the two I tend to like the second definition better because it is more true.

Whether you add your knowledge to that of others, or you put your efforts into learning all there is to learn about a subject you have to ask the right questions. If you take shortcuts or accept answers without question then you are not an expert, but a fool. Sorry if that sounds absolute, but it is true.

I know that PA must understand what I'm saying, and he should have more confidence in his knowledge and abilities. As long as you keep asking questions and digging for the truth because the truth is usually not found in just one version of the story.

If price guides were written to give the advantage to the buyer no one would buy them. Who wants to know the true price they can get for something if it isn't spectacular? So some people use the formula that is established by most businesses. You take the cost of what you make and at least double it to get a retail price.

If you were to find the original price of something and half it, then adjust for inflation, as long as the item is still as new, you could find it's "real" price in today's dollars. Don't be surprised if it's a lot more than you will find in the collector price guides though. Now, think about how that price is affected when something is used.

That is a practical look at somethings price, but why would a used knife go for over $20.00 on eBay, or at some antique store, or through private hands? Because one person has it, and another person wants it. For historical, or personal, or sentimental reasons. There is no way to establish a pure price for something when feelings become involved. That's precisely why hype and advertising work.

The tricky part, when you think about it, is, what if your expert is also good at hyping the thing he knows the best? Can you trust that the expert is giving you an honest unbiased assessment, or is he trying to sell something that he has made a significant investment in? If he gives away his advice I think that is a good start towards trusting his motives.

That's my opinion.

[PA Knives]

I for one appreciate all of the kind words that you all have expressed. I also realize that I am under pressure to produce an outstanding history of this town and the Cutlery Companies that operated there. I feel that I have accomplished that mission. The draft now is in the hands of Mark Zalesky of knife world magazine for editing. Afterwards "if he is still talking to me " I will begin the process of inserting photo's. Many of which came from people like you on this forum. Then off to the printers. A few more months at least I think.

Just as an after thought. I found a web site that is selling three super Tidioute and related straight razors if anyone is interested. Nice pieces and reasonably priced for the condition. PM if interested.

I will do my best to make each and every one of you proud of this site and of the work that you all have provided in making my efforts valuable to all.

Thank you "I really mean that"