This must be a tough one to answer???

[2sharp2touch]

Lots have read this post, but only one has made a stab at commenting.
I don't feel so bad now asking...thought this would be an easy one!

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Case Tested 5265 vs 6265. Is it Stag or Bone?

When checking all the guides, a Case Tested era 65 pattern with a 2nd Cut ONLY mentions it's handles as being made in Stag (5265).

I've always thought the knives pictured (below) were a 2nd Cut Green (bovine) bone (6265).

Another has said they are Stag and now, I'm not sure?

Are they Stag or Bone???

Your comments appreciated!

Here's what the other trader said:
"Ref. Sargent's 6th ed. page 205 top right corner there is a "6265SAB XX GRREN BONE , SECOND CUT GROOVED" listed/pictured in mint cond. It's a second stag. Case designated 5264 and 6265 when they used second cut. Second cut handle materials have a very distinct worm grooving jig. The second cuts could be reddish, orange, yellowish, grennish , brown. The jigging pattern determines the second cut designation. Also, compare your knives to the trappers on page 199. Due to the color you can call it green bone, but it is not bone, it is Stag. "

[gmusic]

I believe "second cut" was a reference to stag. They're may have been some second cut bone...............................just doesn't sound right.

[johnnierotten]

Both of those are worm grooved jigged bone.......I have never heard of second cut bone only second cut stag.
5265 were stag....62's were bone ,wood or delrin.

[johnnierotten]

I have a 3rd edition and it does mention second cut bone. .......what I get from that reference is that it is a thinner bone..not stag.
I'm sure someone with more knowledge of tested era case will chime in.
Got me interested now!!

[sextonknifeworks]

Here is my opinion. I am not sure if Case knew about the modern day nomenclature of second cut stag and bone (nor did they care). In the USA era they marked second cut stag with a 6 and a 5.

There was a memo that went out in the early 60's at Case stating that they heard reports of people buying thier knives with no intentions on using them. The thought of collecting knives really did not start booming until then. So real good record keeping and Limited edition knives did not exist. My opinion is that they realized this right about the USA era and geared the manufacturing more toward the collector instead of the user.

But you must know what people today are calling things. Just like the old 6111 1/2 L knives made pre tested era. They were not called cheetahs back then but that is what we call them now so thats what they are.

Now for the question at hand with only putting the influence on what things are called today and not what they were called back when.

The term Second Cut Stag is referring to the part of the stag left after the natural bark has been removed. This was jigged like bone and often toasted like stag. Therefore this second cut only refers to the layer that the handle material came from with the first cut being the natural bark and the second cut being the bone like core.

Second Cut Bone is referring to the times that the scale had been "cut" by the jigging process. If you look at your 6265's they have the normal XX jigging but Case went back and jigged the "worm grooves" or "indian trails" into the handle. So the terminology behind second cut bone is that it has been jigged twice.

So, second cut stag and bone exist but are totally different.

I hope this helps and all is just my opinion.

[johnnierotten]

Second Cut Bone is referring to the times that the scale had been "cut" by the jigging process. If you look at your 6265's they have the normal XX jigging but Case went back and jigged the "worm grooves" or "indian trails" into the handle. So the terminology behind second cut bone is that it has been jigged twice.

Second cut bone refers to jigging it twice......Great info!!....Thanks!!

[knifeaholic]

See my book for my understanding of second cut bone vs second cut stag in the Case XX USA era. Second cut stag in that era was jigged and dyed a golden color and used on stag handled knives with the "5" in place of regular stag and in other instances it was dyed with regular bone dye and used on bone handled knives with the "6" in place of bone. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Case's use of second cut stag in the USA years had anything to do with collector demand. My belief is that Case was just using up all available material since supplies of both stag and bone were starting to diminish - recall the the use of delrin as a bone substitute started circa 1967 and stag was discontinued completely in mid 1970 due to declining supplies.

I have never seen any XX era knives with second cut stag. On Tested era knives, it is confusing. Second cut stag may have indeed been used; however I do not know how to tell definitively. You will often see examples of the 65 and 72 patterns where the handle material looks like it might be stag that has been jigged and dyed with the typical Tested era dye. The material has a golden color like stag often at the edges, with greener coloring with a slight gold or brown tint to the balance of the handle. Is this material second cut stag or is it green bone? I have no idea nor do I know how to prove it one way or the other. The lack of pattern numbers on virtually all Tested stamped knives makes it that much more difficult,

[Iron Hoarder]

If you really want to know send some to a DNA lab for analysis.

[2sharp2touch]

Okay...here's a little more on the subject:

What Sexton said about 2nd Cut Stag...I've heard as well. Like Ivory, it's the mono-colored, non-detailed inner layer of the staghorn left behind once the pretty stuff has been removed or what they'd call "Bark" if it was ivory. Unlike Ivory...a smooth, unjigged stag handled knife would be pretty uninteresting and where in Ivory, it's outstanding.

What Pheifer said I've heard as well (and read in his book), but it's not about the Tested era like said. EXCEPT...I do have an example of a CASE XX with a 2nd Cut jig put to the front scale to make it appear like real stag and I believe the material used is Stag (not bone). Unlike the rear scale that is 1st Cut natural stag, the front is comprised of a series of "worm grooves" that run horizontally to give the appearance of a grooved Stag scale. You can tell they are man made and appears to be the same process used on a CASE XX 2nd Cut Red Bone 6265...you can see the start and stop ridges inside the groove's trail. I'd think this would be both 2nd Cut Stag [as in Sexton's example...the inner layer] and then worm jigged and treated to look like real stag. I'll get a picture up in the next day to two if anyone's interested.

Now back to the pictured Tested 6265 2nd Cut Stag or Bone...Both Sargent's and Parker's Guides reference 2nd Cut Stag, but no reference to 2nd Cut Bone in the 65s. I'd have to think that the 2nd Cut they are referring to is more the fact of making a second cut over a Stag (likely the inner stag) and probably in addition to the regular Roger's Jig. Kind of like in the 80's with those 2nd cuts that were used to adorn characterless stag. To just Jig it and leave it, it might as well be bone. So, to worm jig it too after it;'d been jigged maybe defined it as being Stag vs bone. Maybe?

Now...consider this. If you look at a bone scale (look at a natural bone or a piece of Appaloosa bone), you can see little striations in the bone. Sometimes specs, or little hairline lines that you can tell are part of the bone's composition. Now look at a clear section of Stag. There are none of these striations. It appears that Stag is "finer" or "tighter" in make-up...not porous like bone may be. It's difficult to see on the Tested's I've shown because the dye is pretty consistent, but in some of the lighter areas, it appears that the scale is dense and smooth, not having the porpos characteristics that a cow bone would have. Maybe this characteristic combined with the 2nd Cut theory says it is Stag. Then again, a DNA test would be definitive...but you're not sampling my scales!

[gmusic]

Bone and Stag are one in the same (sort of)………….internal and external. “Stag” on the other hand has always been a premium in the market, so why not “second cut” Stag if you can get a few more bucks for it than bone.
Bone is bone………...no texture on the outside. First cut, second cut, they’re the same stuff, it looks the same.

If the term “second cut" bone is out there and being used………….well………..bone is bone. Second cut Stag isn't much different than second cut bone.................or first for that matter.

[knifegirl888]

Okay...here's a little more on the subject:

What Sexton said about 2nd Cut Stag...I've heard as well. Like Ivory, it's the mono-colored, non-detailed inner layer of the staghorn left behind once the pretty stuff has been removed or what they'd call "Bark" if it was ivory. Unlike Ivory...a smooth, unjigged stag handled knife would be pretty uninteresting and where in Ivory, it's outstanding.

What Pheifer said I've heard as well (and read in his book), but it's not about the Tested era like said. EXCEPT...I do have an example of a CASE XX with a 2nd Cut jig put to the front scale to make it appear like real stag and I believe the material used is Stag (not bone). Unlike the rear scale that is 1st Cut natural stag, the front is comprised of a series of "worm grooves" that run horizontally to give the appearance of a grooved Stag scale. You can tell they are man made and appears to be the same process used on a CASE XX 2nd Cut Red Bone 6265...you can see the start and stop ridges inside the groove's trail. I'd think this would be both 2nd Cut Stag [as in Sexton's example...the inner layer] and then worm jigged and treated to look like real stag. I'll get a picture up in the next day to two if anyone's interested.

Now back to the pictured Tested 6265 2nd Cut Stag or Bone...Both Sargent's and Parker's Guides reference 2nd Cut Stag, but no reference to 2nd Cut Bone in the 65s. I'd have to think that the 2nd Cut they are referring to is more the fact of making a second cut over a Stag (likely the inner stag) and probably in addition to the regular Roger's Jig. Kind of like in the 80's with those 2nd cuts that were used to adorn characterless stag. To just Jig it and leave it, it might as well be bone. So, to worm jig it too after it;'d been jigged maybe defined it as being Stag vs bone. Maybe?

Now...consider this. If you look at a bone scale (look at a natural bone or a piece of Appaloosa bone), you can see little striations in the bone. Sometimes specs, or little hairline lines that you can tell are part of the bone's composition. Now look at a clear section of Stag. There are none of these striations. It appears that Stag is "finer" or "tighter" in make-up...not porous like bone may be. It's difficult to see on the Tested's I've shown because the dye is pretty consistent, but in some of the lighter areas, it appears that the scale is dense and smooth, not having the porpos characteristics that a cow bone would have. Maybe this characteristic combined with the 2nd Cut theory says it is Stag. Then again, a DNA test would be definitive...but you're not sampling my scales!

Pictures are always interesting!

[Miller Bro's]

Case Tested 5265 vs 6265. Is it Stag or Bone?

The handle material is jigged bone. It started out as cattle shin bone, jigged and dyed to resemble natural stag antlers.

The simple answer to your question is it is jigged bone, period. No matter what knife companies called it. In some of my old original knife catalogs knife companies would call their jigged bone handles Stag or Bone Stag handles. Natural Stag was reffered to as Genuine Stag.

Confusing to say the least

[tongueriver]

I don't know who is right about the above knives, but I do know this: Although the visible presence of Haversian canals is a good indicator of bone, it is not always that simple. In fact, antler is bone, although its characteristics are obviously different than pelvis bone or shin bone. Many people would look at elk antler made up into something and swear it was "bone." And not only are there different grades of Sambar stag, there are several species whose antlers are made up into handles. Some German knives have antler handles which I think are brash and chalky looking. I think at least some of those come from Red Deer farmed in Argentina. And some bone is denser than many examples of stag, even very nice stag.

[ole_muddy]

[quote="sextonknifeworks"].

"There was a memo that went out in the early 60's at Case stating that they heard reports of people buying thier knives with no intentions on using them. The thought of collecting knives really did not start booming until then. So real good record keeping and Limited edition knives did not exist. My opinion is that they realized this right about the USA era and geared the manufacturing more toward the collector instead of the user."


I was getting out of high school in those years and since my Dad was a gun collector I remember what he and other gun collectors were discussing at the time. And that was switching to knife collecting for this primary reason:

The Kennedy Assassination had stimulated an anti-gun movement motivated by how Oswald got his 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano through the mail. A lot of collectors were worried about what impending gun legislation before Congress would entail and thusly worried about the government confiscating guns. This eventually evolved into the Federal Firearms Act of 1968. It didn't change much in the gun world other than creating more paperwork for the gun dealers.

And so, the knife collecting hobby got a jump start from the gun collectors of the day. Unfortunately, at that time, I didn't pay any attention to it. As a good red-blooded American country boy my interests were of a more earthy nature--Alcohol, nicotine, and the temptations of Eve. (in case you remember the song) In case you don't, here's a link to it on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgVMMdOplHw

Everybody have a great Thanksgiving Day!

Eric