Need help replacing leaf spring on leverlock

[pacocap]

Hello all. This is my first post. Judging by the tutorials and posts on this forum, I think this is the most likely place where I'm going to get a helpful answer.

I have this old (35+ years) Hunting Siegfried leverlock:





Close-up of the broken spring:



The leaf spring is long broken and I want to replace it. I found photos of a disassembled knife just like mine here:

http://knifenetwork.com/forum/showpost. ... ostcount=3

The spring is broken so about 1/3 of it remains in the slot. I can't grip it with hemostats because there is no gap beneath it. Does anyone know a way to remove it without disassembling the knife and then make a new spring from spring stock and replace it? Thanks for any help.

[Gus]

It's floating in thin air!!! Muskrat Man can probably help you better than I, my thoughts are to put it in a vice that has some leather or whatnot to protect the knife. Get a punch and hammer and try to tap it out toward the blade. You might even be able to drill a little hole in the spring piece for the punch to grip on. A spring can be made, but lately I've been thinking that Hubertus replacement springs should fit in all these old German Levers. Awesome knife!! It'll be snappin in no time.

Looks to be damage to the scales so if you wanted them replaced it would be no problem to replace the spring then. Man that blade is in nice shape. Usually they are ground down to almost nothing, definitely worth fixing.

[pacocap]

It's floating in thin air!!!

I know. Totally "by accident". I just slapped it onto a glass table top. Next time I'll add a nice background. It really does look like it's floating doesn't it?

Muskrat Man can probably help you better than I

Hopefully he'll chime in. I also hope orvet will.

my thoughts are to put it in a vice that has some leather or whatnot to protect the knife. Get a punch and hammer and try to tap it out toward the blade.

I didn't mention it but that's what I did and the pin just slipped.

You might even be able to drill a little hole in the spring piece for the punch to grip on.

That seems like a good idea. I was going to try an easy-out (screw extractor) but I couldn't find one that would fit the channel.

A spring can be made, but lately I've been thinking that Hubertus replacement springs should fit in all these old German Levers.

Sounds expensive. Spring material is cheap and it doesn't look like much work would be needed.

Awesome knife!! It'll be snappin in no time.

Thanks. And thanks for the encouragement.

Looks to be damage to the scales so if you wanted them replaced it would be no problem to replace the spring then.

Yes at some point I plan to replace them with real stag but for now I'd just like to get it working.

Man that blade is in nice shape. Usually they are ground down to almost nothing, definitely worth fixing.

It is in great shape. It is sharp enough to easily catch on a fingernail. It is worth it to me because of sentimental value alone.

[Gus]

Well depending if you have the ambition to do things yourself and what tools you already have at hand. Replacing the scales really isn't that hard. Hubertus springs cost about 10 dollars a bar of 1095 about 7. plus you have to fab it. But it's just a hunch that the Hubertus springs will work, but I don't see why not.

[Elvis]

Here is a good place to pick up that new spring material......http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=60_85

[pacocap]

Here is a good place to pick up that new spring material......http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=60_85

Yes I was planning to order it from them. The price is only $2 for a 12" piece. Enough for 3 knives. But the shipping is over $8. Grrr. I also found a source of the Hubertus springs that seems reasonable, so if I can get one that'll fit, I'll probably get that. Meanwhile I still need to get that frikkin' broken piece outa there. Any suggestions?

[orvet]

I am no expert on those old leverlocks, but I would start by completely dissembling that knife and cleaning the corrosion off the parts to see how many other parts need to be replaced. Due to the amount of damage visible on the outside of that knife, you may need to replace more than a broken spring.

Maybe the instability of the celluloid is why I have not seen many celluloid stag handles.

I love old knives, but every now & then I see an old beauty like this one where the celluloid has ruined the knife and I want to sell every celluloid knife in my collection or else throw them all in the ocean!

What scares me about that knife is the amount of damage that is visible. I have taken knives apart with no visible indication that off-gassing of the celluloid had occurred, only to find the liners or other internal parts were unsalvageable.

I hope you can save that old beauty.
If it were my knife I would remove all the celluloid and throw it away so it doesn’t cause any more damage. Then I would completely dissemble the knife and clean up the parts. It is hard to tell with celluloid, I have seen knives that look like a celluloid toxic waste dump that have been salvageable with donations from a parts knife. I have seen others with little or no visible damage that cannot be salvaged.

You really won’t know what you have until you get it apart.
I wish you the best on it, but all that celluloid damage scares me.

Good luck,
Dale

[Gus]

I would agree on taking it apart. You will have to let us know what you stance is on this and your reasons for not wanting to do it. It would be well worth it in the long run. If you have a dremel it is very easy. Just take your time. You will be scrapping the scales anyway so no need to be sensitive in those areas. If you want to do this here's what you do. Get one of those round burr's they are about three bucks, get a small and large. Grind off the rear pin head, take your time just go straight down. Eventually the peened part or head will just fall off. Take a punch and tap it out. Do the same with the top middle one that goes through the scales and the back spring. At this point you can swing the knife open and inspect or take out the blade pin and totally take it apart. Take off the nasty scales you'll see how the spring comes out and start cleaning it up. We'll save that for the next part if you feel you want to take it on.
Granted you may have some trouble with a stubborn pin or two, just take your time grind tap grind, you may have to tap it so you can grind the head on the other side, etc. Well walk you through it if you decide you want to.

[pacocap]

Hey thanks guys for your suggestions and offer to help. orvet, don't worry about condition. I will be happy just to get it working, though I will make every effort to do a good job. I suspect the knife is in better condition than you think. The blade opens and closes like new and is factory sharp. I'm talking about '60s factories not 2000 ones. The backspring is tight. There seems to be only surface rust on the inside and ouside of the backspring. The brass liners are smooth and not pitted anywhere on the inside or on the outside edges. A piece of the celluloid scale broke away when I tried to remove the spring and there is surface verdigris on the outside of the liner under where it was but it scrapes off easily with a thumbnail. The steel bolsters have the slightest surface rust and should buff up just fine. A bigger concern that I would have is the lever spring itself since it is no doubt irreplaceable. It is slightly rusted and there is a 1/2" piece of the brass strip on top missing so I'd have to replace that. I think I would lacquer the brass since the iron-brass interface would definitely cause electrolytic corrosion. That would also keep the brass nice and shiny and protect it from fingerprint acids. I have been in touch with wolf2blues and he can get all the other parts including the Hubertus spring and 2mm pins. BTW he told me NOT to remove the pivot pin because it is oval shaped and very hard to get. I won't. I will definitely CAREFULLY disassemble the knife and report back with photos so stay tuned . . .

[muskrat man]

the kickspring broke becuase it was either not seated fully i nthe slot or it shifted from that position. It' will do the same thing again eventually if it is not held in place by a dovetail or a stake, this will require partial disassembly of the knife. Hubertus springs may or may not work depending on the size of the slot and the actual length needed (many companies had lsight differences in the lgnth of thier springs). I can make and install a new spring for $28 including return postage. I can also do the rehandle while it's here and clean (or replace if neccesery) the spring cover for a bit more $. These can be a PITA to work on if you do not have prior experience. BTW by partial disassembly I mean the removal of the butt pin, thats it. The rest will stay intact. Thats a pretty nice old italian, looks strikingly similar to one that was on ebay a while back. The quality of the old ones puts the new ones to shame. For example the slip in kickspring, modern ones are one solid stamped piece and do not kick near as hard.

Oval pivot pins? I don't think so, a blade wouldn't pivot too well on an oval pin. Also, the spring stock knifekits sells is much too thin 1/8" stock is needed to make kicksprings.

[pacocap]

Hey thanks MM for chiming in. Stephen highly recommends you as THE leverlock man. I'll PM you later.

the kickspring broke becuase it was either not seated fully i nthe slot or it shifted from that position. It' will do the same thing again eventually if it is not held in place by a dovetail or a stake, this will require partial disassembly of the knife.

Well you can see from the detail pic that it is displaced to one side but how does that cause it to break? I thought just normal use fatigues the metal and it eventually breaks. You mean an extra shim in the pocket?

Hubertus springs may or may not work depending on the size of the slot and the actual length needed (many companies had lsight differences in the lgnth of thier springs).

Talking to Stephen, it seems that a 10cm spring MIGHT work. It is the right length but it may be too high in the bend.

I can make and install a new spring for $28 including return postage. I can also do the rehandle while it's here and clean (or replace if neccesery) the spring cover for a bit more $. These can be a PITA to work on if you do not have prior experience. BTW by partial disassembly I mean the removal of the butt pin, thats it. The rest will stay intact.

OK. Let's talk. But I am pretty determined to do it myself with the help and guidance of these guys so be prepared.

Thats a pretty nice old italian, looks strikingly similar to one that was on ebay a while back. The quality of the old ones puts the new ones to shame. For example the slip in kickspring, modern ones are one solid stamped piece and do not kick near as hard.

That's true about just about everything. Sad isn't it? How much did it go for on eBay?

Oval pivot pins? I don't think so, a blade wouldn't pivot too well on an oval pin. Also, the spring stock knifekits sells is much too thin 1/8" stock is needed to make kicksprings.

Yeah I don't know about the oval pins either. You can see that they look very round. But why would you mess with it if you don't need to? Yes you are right. The spring stock is more than 1/8" WIDE but only .070" thick. That would break right away.

[muskrat man]

Hey thanks MM for chiming in. Stephen highly recommends you as THE leverlock man. I'll PM you later.

the kickspring broke becuase it was either not seated fully i nthe slot or it shifted from that position. It' will do the same thing again eventually if it is not held in place by a dovetail or a stake, this will require partial disassembly of the knife.

Well you can see from the detail pic that it is displaced to one side but how does that cause it to break? I thought just normal use fatigues the metal and it eventually breaks. You mean an extra shim in the pocket?
well tempered steel will not be as apt to fatigue over time, less kickspring in the slot gives the blade more leverage on the spring than it was designed for and they break, I normally stake them in with a pin, but usually just dovetail the notch so the spring won't slip out

Hubertus springs may or may not work depending on the size of the slot and the actual length needed (many companies had lsight differences in the lgnth of thier springs).

Talking to Stephen, it seems that a 10cm spring MIGHT work. It is the right length but it may be too high in the bend. You'll need at least an 11cm, most shellpullers are 11cm and have a hair longer frame so even an 11cm may be to short, you can always bend them

I can make and install a new spring for $28 including return postage. I can also do the rehandle while it's here and clean (or replace if neccesery) the spring cover for a bit more $. These can be a PITA to work on if you do not have prior experience. BTW by partial disassembly I mean the removal of the butt pin, thats it. The rest will stay intact.

OK. Let's talk. But I am pretty determined to do it myself with the help and guidance of these guys so be prepared.

Thats a pretty nice old italian, looks strikingly similar to one that was on ebay a while back. The quality of the old ones puts the new ones to shame. For example the slip in kickspring, modern ones are one solid stamped piece and do not kick near as hard.

That's true about just about everything. Sad isn't it? How much did it go for on eBay?
last time I had looked at it went around $66 or something, ti was in much rougher shape than it's in now, the bolsters had huge rust growths on them

Oval pivot pins? I don't think so, a blade wouldn't pivot too well on an oval pin. Also, the spring stock knifekits sells is much too thin 1/8" stock is needed to make kicksprings.

Yeah I don't know about the oval pins either. You can see that they look very round. But why would you mess with it if you don't need to? Yes you are right. The spring stock is more than 1/8" WIDE but only .070" thick. That would break right away.

not so much that it would break but it wouldn't fit in the slot, that is about the thickness of the american presto and schrade kicksprings about 1/3 the thickness you need. your spring will end up being about 1/8" wide x 3/32" thick if you made a new one from barstock.

[pacocap]

not so much that it would break but it wouldn't fit in the slot, that is about the thickness of the american presto and schrade kicksprings about 1/3 the thickness you need. your spring will end up being about 1/8" wide x 3/32" thick if you made a new one from barstock.

The backspring measures exactly 4mm wide with a vernier and the leaf spring is just as wide.

[Gus]

What exactly is this dove tail or stake? I'm no expert but I've had a few of these apart and I don't see a dovetail on the kick/backspring connection. I mean maybe I'll have to look again, but it's not very exaggerated or noticeable. If it's dovetailed why the heck do they slip out? A proper dovetail would prevent this right? To me it just seems pressure fit. I just set the spring on the backspring and tap it in tight make sure it's fully seated. Now whats more common, improper seating or poor temper causing a spring to break? Some of these knives are 50 years old a spring is bound to just break right? Seems like a lot of blame gets put on improper seating is what I'm getting at I guess. Anyways,

MM does excellent work look at some pics, but if you still wanna do it yourself and I understand if you do. It's fun it's a challenge and well you did it yourself. Like MM said you really only need to remove the one pin at the back and the backspring will pivot out exposing the kickspring.

Also MM is there a place that sells proper width kickspring material?? You could get 1095 barstock for about 10 bucks you'll be doing alot of cutting but it'll be enough to make alot of springs. Seems like theres got to be a place that sells strips like knifekits.com just bigger so they could be ground down. I really don't know what the common practice is to make a kickspring as I have not made one yet.

[pacocap]

what exactly is this dove tail or stake? I'm no expert but I've had a few of these apart and I don't see a dovetail on the kick/backspring connection. To me it just seems pressure fit.

I think they're all like the one in the photos of that disassembled knife I linked to. I think it is just called a dovetail but it doesn't have the keyed shape of a true woodworking dovetail. The mention of this gives me an idea to make a small wedge with a slot on top to pin the spring in tight but that would allow easy removal of a broken spring with just a screwdriver. You could easily pry the wedge out.

I just set the spring on the backspring and tap it in tight make sure it's fully seated.

Can you explain how you do it? That's something I am going to need to do.

Now whats more common, improper seating or poor temper causing a spring to break? Some of these knives are 50 years old a spring is bound to just break right?

That's an excellent question. My spring broke within a year but I showed it to a lot of people and opened it many times. If you look at the detail photo you can see that the side of the spring is snug against the liner. It worked well but maybe that's what caused it to fatigue and break. Centered would be the best scenario I would think.

[Gus]

just line up the spring with the slot on the backspring and tap it in (laying flat) Then give it a little tap at the tip to make sure it's all the way in.

[pacocap]

just line up the spring with the slot on the backspring and tap it in (laying flat) Then give it a little tap at the tip to make sure it's all the way in.

But can you do this without disassembling the knife? Do you grip the spring with any tool?

[Gus]

You will have to at least remove the rear pin and pivot the the backspring

[Gus]

http://www.pvknife.com/webcat/ oops link didn't work click the link go to the drop down and click hubertus and find the springs. I could be wrond but I really don't see why one of those springs wouldn't work. Might need alittle tweak you can be the guniea pig, hahha. I took a spring from one german springer and put it in a different manufacture springer. I've probably opened it well over 100 times in the past week. If it breaks it more than likely from it's age than improper seating, but what do I know.
heres some info on spring removal and heres some pics. If you are going to remove any pins to fix the spring I would just take it apart and put new scales on it because you'll just have to take it apart anyway. But hey more practice right!

here I snapped a pic of what will happen if you remove just the back pin. Npw as you can see this one is torally apart but you get the idea. And just tap the other spring in like in the other pic.

[pacocap]

http://www.pvknife.com/webcat/ oops link didn't work click the link go to the drop down and click hubertus and find the springs. I could be wrond but I really don't see why one of those springs wouldn't work. Might need alittle tweak you can be the guniea pig, hahha.

Yeah, I didn't see that site, nice pics, but wolf2blues has 'em for $7 postpaid, not $10+who-knows-how-much. He sent me a pic of the 10cm taken on his cell phone:



Using my trusty screen calipers, I measure 3/8" from the base to the top of the hump. My knife has 3/4" of clearance from the backspring to the top of the liner so it might fit. The only thing is the bend at the butt end of the spring but that may not be a problem.

here I snapped a pic of what will happen if you remove just the back pin. Npw as you can see this one is torally apart but you get the idea. And just tap the other spring in like in the other pic.

What do you mean 'back pin'? The bolster pin? I would remove all but the pivot pin.

[muskrat man]

What exactly is this dove tail or stake? I'm no expert but I've had a few of these apart and I don't see a dovetail on the kick/backspring connection. I mean maybe I'll have to look again, but it's not very exaggerated or noticeable. If it's dovetailed why the heck do they slip out? A proper dovetail would prevent this right? To me it just seems pressure fit.

They are designed to be slip in springs I cut a dove tail to prevent them from slipping in or out, this requires making a spring from scratch to fit the dovetail, or you can stake them in place with a pin if you insist on using a hubertus replacement and are worried about it slipping out and/or breaking.

[pacocap]

They are designed to be slip in springs I cut a dove tail to prevent them from slipping in or out, this requires making a spring from scratch to fit the dovetail, or you can stake them in place with a pin if you insist on using a hubertus replacement and are worried about it slipping out and/or breaking.

Pictures of both ways PLEASE.

[muskrat man]

I don't have any pics and don't have any in need of repair to take apart and photograph. sorry

[pacocap]

I came across a somewhat heated discussion in a thread about people having problems with Hubertus springs. Bill DeShivs, a true knife expert, has a lot to say about improperly seated springs and other issues:

http://www.talkblade.info/viewtopic.php ... effb6597d6

Most noteworthy comments:

The problem is that the springs slip out. This is a necessary evil, as they need to slip IN. If you disassemble the knives and install a spring that won't slip forward, it should last a long time. Even staking the stock springs in (requires disassembly) will fix the problem.
Bill DeShivs

"Staking" means using a punch to burr metal to prevent a spring from "walking."
Bill DeShivs

I wish someone like MM would show a picture of that or explain how to do it.

The problem is that springs should not install that way. Springs should be put in as the knife is assembled. They go in from the side, and should be slightly dovetailed to prevent walking. The "slip-in" spring will ALWAYS walk. There is no Q.C.problem with the springs.
If you have a favorite Hubie, the best thing to do is have a cutler replace or stake the spring. It requires disassembly.
Bill DeShivs

I do know that the "user-installed" spring is usually the problem.
This is a novel approach, but these springs WILL cause problems if they are not checked and reseated when they move. The springs are supposed to be long enough that once installed, they can not move forward without hitting the blade tang, and are supposed to be of a shape that will not stress the backspring- so I guess QC is a problem.
Bill DeShivs

[Gus]

I don't know what happened but I made a post earlier long and short of it. Get a Hubertus spring. Remove the rear bolster pin Swing the backspring up take out broken spring replace by tapping in from the side like the pic above. Now if it seems obvious its a poor fit you'll now. Dovetail schmovetail, stake schmake, see if it works. If it breaks dovetail or stake see if that works. You only know if you try. I'm not going to get in a debate about sliding versus temper, but I lean on the temper side. Even Bill said if the spring is the proper length it will sit right up to the tang of the blade so if it slips it will touch it. Just get it in there and check on it here and there. Springs break it happens.

If you can't get it to work worst case scenario send it off to get fixed you're what out 7 bucks on the spring and if it works, well it only cost 7 bucks.