Why did this knife rust and explode?

Turkey Creek Tom · Post by **Turkey Creek Tom** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:49 pm

I just opened a knife pack of 60 knives...stored in a trunk...and I found the one in the picture had rusted, and exploded, breaking the back spring and cracking both handles. None of the other knives were injured in the rust explosion! The knive was new and unused when it was put in the pack.

Was it my bad handling or storage of knives or was there something on the knife when I stored it?

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:26 pm

celluoid gasout! you're lucky more knives were'nt harmed.

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:13 pm

jonet143 wrote:celluoid gasout! you're lucky more knives were'nt harmed.

I think you are right there Johnny. At first I thought there may be more to it, but looking at the discolorization of the bolsters, outgassing of the celluloid was definitely the culprit. That is one of the more severe cases I've seen.
This is why we keep celluloid seperate from non-celluloid knives. I don't know if I would keep 60 knives with celluloid together, you might want to keep a close eye on the other 59 that were stored with it.

remington collector · Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:26 pm

I don't think it exploded per say, the rust, due to the gassing of the celluloid, weakened the backspring enough that it broke. That took the tension off of the center pin, thus cracking the handles. At least thats what I figured happened to it.

e3ck · Post by **e3ck** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:49 am

I ain't never seen that before

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:52 pm

A local collector had a case with about 25 knives in it. One of the celluloids suddenly started to outgas. I had looked in that case about 2 months before it happened & he had looked at them about 2-3 weeks before it happened & they were fine. When he opened the case the last time one knife was almost totally destroyed and several others had been damaged. The cost of the damage was hundreds of dollars in decreased value to the knives in the case.

I try to keep my celluloids separate from my other knives.

Dale

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:21 pm

H TCT;
Suspect high humidity. Myself for one would be interested in a hygrometer
reading in that trunk closed up as the knives were stored. An hour should be long enough for an accurate reading. Seems as though the conditions for rust and gassing were ultimate. Also an interior temperature reading would be helpful.
Thank You for your help if possible,
W.B.

Gr8Scout · Post by **Gr8Scout** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:02 am

Gasout it was, I think. One of the worse cases I've seen. Could you post some more pics of that knife, please? I woul like to keep them in my personal files.

I think of this happening everytime I buy a great old cell handled knife. That's one reason I keep them in the open, on display. I like to think air circulation helps preserve them and I get to enjoy the knives more that way-- until or if they deterierate.

Phil

Turkey Creek Tom · Post by **Turkey Creek Tom** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:21 pm

Gr8Scout wanted some more pictures of the celluoid gasout explosion.
I found another knife that was damaged. One handle was cracked and discolored and rust galore on the blade. One knife next to it got some rust and the first knive that got a broken backspring and both handles cracked, even changed handle color. It was blue now it's green. Gas turns you green I guess? Both knives were new and unused when I put them in the pack. Yes Gr8Scout I have learned instead of collecting and storing ~ we need to collect and show ~ What good is a collection of knives stored in a trunk to get damaged. I hope picture 2 shows the knife where the backspring broke and it even broke one of the straps holding it. The Christmas tree canoe next to it got some rust damage, but cleaned up...The second knife was on the opposite side of the pack.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:45 pm

celluoid... better living through chemistry

not all go bad but it only takes one.

Gr8Scout · Post by **Gr8Scout** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:22 pm

Thank you for the photos. Very good post here. To be clear... I do not know if keeping my old cells out in the open will improve their life expectantcy. My point is to enjoy them and show them off and I am hopefull that fresh air surrounding them will help.

Here is the best thing I have read on cell handles, from the BRLevine site.

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:40 am

I don't know if the humidity contributes to the out-gassing, but I know it does contribute to rust (I haven't lived in Oregon all my life for nothing).

I keep a lot of my knives, that I don't have boxes for, in ole cigar boxes. I save all the little dessicant packets that come in bottles of pills, nutritional supplements and jerky and put 3 or 4 in each cigar box of knives. I think that helps keep them a little dryer. If humidity contributes to out-gassing, then the dessicant should help. It may be that the dessicant will help absorb the gas from the out-gassing, but I don't know it that is in fact true.

Dale

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:57 pm

For anyone interested;
Found this article re: gassing of old cel. campaign buttons.
Sorry could not get a url link to work, probably proprietary. Here is the storage they reccommend. I happen to use a twenty drawer craftsman tool chest. Seem okay so far.
wb

Storage
Because campaign buttons are composite objects
that contain sensitive materials, proper storage is
critical to their long-term preservation. Buttons, with
or without ribbons, should be stored flat in trays.
They can be placed on polyester batting or polyethylene
sheeting (Dow “Ethafoam”) so they have
some cushioning and do not slide around when the
storage drawers are pulled out. Only non-buffered
storage materials, (such as tissue paper, mat board and
storage boxes) should come in contact with buttons
containing celluloid, as thealkaline buffering materialwill accelerate the
deterioration of celluloid.Do not stack buttons on
one another in a tray orstore many buttons on top
of one another in a box.This limits accessibility and
increases handling and damage. Riker mounts (flat,
black boxes with glass tops, originally intended for
biological collections) are not recommended, for they
also limit the accessibility of the objects for research,
increase handling, and increase the possibility of
damage if the buttons are pressed too hard against
the glass cover.If the Riker mounts are
kept in conditions of highhumidity, moisture can
build up on the underside of the glass and can cause
deterioration of the celluloid covers on the
older buttons. Air exchange for the celluloid
is also limited in these mounts, which can accelerate
deterioration of the other, acid-susceptible materials.
To meet the environmental requirements of all the
possible components of the buttons, the temperature
in the storage area should be in the range of 65º to 70º F.
Relative humidity (RH) should be in the range of 40
to 55 percent over the course of each year, with a daily
fluctuation in the range of 10 percent. RH levels much
below 35-40 percent for extended periods can cause
excessive dryness in textile fibers, and levels above 60-
65 percent can promote fungal growth.
Avoid cabinets and drawers constructed of highly
acidic hardwoods such as oak and maple, as these will
contribute to the corrosion of the metals in the
objects. Sealing with coatings can be done, but this is
expensive and time-consuming, and is not 100 percent
effective as a barrier against volatile organic acids from
woods and wood products. Even wood products that
are formaldhyde-free, such as Medite II, still need to
be coated to prevent off-gassing of harmful acids, such
as acetic acid. Powder-coated, or baked-enamel
painted, metal cabinets that completely meet
conservation specifications are the optimum storage
fixtures for this type of collection. An experienced
conservator should be contacted for more details on
storage materials specifications. As mentioned above,
the storage cabinets should have good air circulation
and provide acid-vapor absorbing materials to protect
other collections in the storage areas.

Hukk · Post by **Hukk** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:01 am

orvet wrote:I don't know if the humidity contributes to the out-gassing, but I know it does contribute to rust (I haven't lived in Oregon all my life for nothing). I keep a lot of my knives, that I don't have boxes for, in ole cigar boxes. I save all the little dessicant packets that come in bottles of pills, nutritional supplements and jerky and put 3 or 4 in each cigar box of knives. I think that helps keep them a little dryer. If humidity contributes to out-gassing, then the dessicant should help. It may be that the dessicant will help absorb the gas from the out-gassing, but I don't know it that is in fact true.

Dale

For larger containers of dessicant beads, I found that Cabelas still carries them. They are on the online catalog also:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... hasJS=true
They work great, just pop them in the oven to dry them out and they are ready to re-use.