Another Schrade/Ulster Enigma

[orvet]

Every so often I run across a Schrade Knife that presents me with an enigma, or a puzzle I cannot readily explain. Recently I was taking apart an Ulster TL-29 for an overhaul and to cut it down to a single blade knife when I found another enigma.

As we all know Ulster made some knives for Schrade. They made the Ulster Old Timers; model numbers 58OT, 10OT and the 114OT (camper) for the Prince Albert promotion, circa 1964 - 1966. But I did not know that Schrade made knives for Ulster!

To understand this mystery we have to know first about the Swinden Key system. Regular knives are made with pin-through-bolster construction. That is to say there is a pin that goes completely through the bolsters to provide a pivot for the blades and to hold the sides of the knife together.

Schrade had in their employ a man who was a genus when it came to making machines that made knives; his name was Dave Swinden. Dave Swinden, (now with Canal Street Cutlery), came up with the system that bears his name: the Swinden Key System.

In the Swinden system a rivet holds the blades, inner liner and on some patterns, such as a stockman it holds one of the backsprings together in one unit. The head of the rivet fits into a key cut into the outer liner and bolster of the knife. When the inner assembly is properly adjusted if fits neatly into the keyways of the bolsters and a turn of a few degrees locks the whole assembly into place. All that is necessary is to compress the backspring(s) and slide the rocker pin into place and spin a head on the back of the rocker pin. Viola! You now have a completely assembled Swinden type knife.

To the best of my knowledge Schrade was the only knife company who ever employed the Swinden System. As someone who specialized in repair, restoration and customizing of Schrade knives I am used to working with the Swinden System knives. What I am not used to seeing is an Ulster knife with the Swinden components in it!

But here you have it, an Ulster TL-29 that has definitely been made with the Swinden Key System!

I guess this is what I like about collecting Schrade knives and knives from related companies such as Ulster and Camillus. I never know what I will find when I take a knife apart!

Here are the components of the knife.

This is a close up view of the Swinden Key construction.
Notice the large head on the rivet that is holding the blade/liner assembly together.

This view shows the rivet heads a bit better. They fit into the keyway in the outer liner/bolster assembly.

I hope you find this as interesting and amusing as I do.
When it comes to Schrade and the related companies, you never know what surprise or mystery awaits you.
It may be in the very next knife you pickup!

Dale

[upnorth]

I can see your surprise! I assume that Ulster made regular pinned TL-29s themselves, also?
Swinden Key System (SKS);
Dale when was it perfected?
Have you found it in other branded knives?

[ea42]

Dale,

Once Ulster, Schrade, and Imperial merged, the individuality of those seperate companies got somewhat jumbled up to say the least. Many of the knife components were made in Providence and shipped to Ellenville and Walden for assembly, and vice versa. For example, most of the parts for the Prince Albert knives were made in Providence, and the 15OT wound up making a couple of round trips before it was done. I think initially the Ulster stamp signified a finer finish (polished on both sides for instance), but eventually it was dropped altogether to avoid needless duplicity with other lines.

Eric

[orvet]

I can see your surprise! I assume that Ulster made regular pinned TL-29s themselves, also?
Swinden Key System (SKS);
Dale when was it perfected?
Have you found it in other branded knives?

That is the first Ulster I have seen with SKS technology. I have worked on a number of Ulsters, TL-29 as well as other patterns, and all were made with pin-through-bolster construction.

I believe the Swinden system was brought online in the early to mid 1960s. The patient was granted to Dave Swinden on April 4th, 1961, (see one of the patient diagrams attached).

I have seen the SKS on a number of knives with the Craftsman brand that were made for Sears.
As I recall, Schrade made 3 slipjoints for Buck. As the story goes, Buck was impressed with the quality of the Schrade made knives. However, they had one request; they wanted their knives made without the SKS technology because they did not have the Swinden machine in their factory, (Schrade had the only one) and they had difficulty repairing knives made with the SKS. Schrade refused to change the construction of the knives they made for Buck, so Buck moved the contracts to Camillus.

While that might seem like business suicide, remember at this time Albert Baer owned both Schrade & Camillus. Basically he kept the contract and just moved the contract to another of his companies, which was geared to making smaller batches of knives. Schrade kept the contracts for Sears, who at this time probably sold more knives per year than Buck did. This is not a commentary on the small size of Buck, but an observation of the large size of Sears and the number of knives they sold in this time frame.

I know other Schrade made knives for a lot of other companies. I will have to dig out some info on this.

Perhaps some of our members know of Schrade made knives for other companies?

Dale

[orvet]

Dale,

Once Ulster, Schrade, and Imperial merged, the individuality of those seperate companies got somewhat jumbled up to say the least. Many of the knife components were made in Providence and shipped to Ellenville and Walden for assembly, and vice versa. For example, most of the parts for the Prince Albert knives were made in Providence, and the 15OT wound up making a couple of round trips before it was done. I think initially the Ulster stamp signified a finer finish (polished on both sides for instance), but eventually it was dropped altogether to avoid needless duplicity with other lines.

Eric

Eric,
Do you mean there was an Ulster version of the 15OT?

Dale

[ea42]

Dale,

No, I was only using it as an example of how many times a single knife would pass between the different divisions, sorry about the confusion



I do know that the Western 801 was an Ulster TL-29, the Jackmaster TL-29 was a shell handled model, and the Craftsman TL-29 (Imperial made) was a standard bolstered model. Sure were enough varieties! If I see Dave I'll ask him if he recalls when they went over to Swinden keyed models. Speaking of which, who's in possession of that original patent?

Eric

[Sauconian]

I know other Schrade made knives for a lot of other companies. I will have to dig out some info on this.

Perhaps some of our members know of Schrade made knives for other companies?

Dale

Dale, If you had seen the boxes of tang stamps from the closed Schrade factory it might be easier to ask if anyone knew who Schrade didn't make knives for !

Fran

[upnorth]

Where are those stamps now, Fran??

[Sauconian]

I'll never tell !






LT has 3 large wooden boxes full. There were still more that Eric may know the whereabouts of.

[ea42]

Um.......I thought they were useless hunks of scrap metal so I melted them down and made some lovely trivets

Oh, and I also fashioned a couple of cups to hold my exploded gonads

Eric

[Darksev]

I can image the look on your face Dale when you cut the rocker and rear pins and the whole damn knife fell apart! Neat find!

[ea42]

OK, that little rant above wasn't me going nuts , it's actually a little inside story that has to do with me running about two hundred yards carrying about sixty or seventy pounds of this (not all Ulsters mind you):

PS- Dale, sorry about the thread hijack! Kind of got off the beaten path

[ea42]

To get back on track....Dale, I'm a little confused about the make-up of that one, wouldn't there have been a Swinden rivet holding the spring in place at the butt of the knife as well? Seems like having a regular peenable rivet there cancels the whole idea of saving that step with the key. Or does the fact that it could be simply spun onto the handle material eliminate the need for a key on that end?

OK. I think I just answered my own question, in order to have the key on a barehead end, you'd have to hollow out some of the handle material, which would be a real pain in the arse! The keys only work under modified bolsters (or hollow handles I'd imagine).

Eric

[orvet]

I think you have hit it on the head Eric.

They did use some modified versions of the Swinden System on some patterns like the 5OT and 55OT.
I will have to take some pics next time I have one apart.

Dale