Bogus Winchester scout on ebay

[ole_muddy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Winchester-Knife-49 ... 45f0bc14c3

Here's one to add to the list of fakes. Winchester did not make this knife, it is most likely a Utica that's had the blades restamped. Eric

[gearhead]

Hey muddy, that chester sure looks legit to me. That pattern # is listed as a scout/utility in my books. What is it that makes you think it's fake? Please educate me on this knife.

[gearhead]

$180.00 winner. Hope the buyer is happy.

[rigwelder]

I dont know about the Winchester,,,,,but i do have a cobbled up knife that i won from this seller. Contacted him, never got a reply. AND I WONT BUY FROM HIM AGAIN!

[edgy46]

Don't know winchesters, but that is a utica punch blade.

[knifeaholic]

Don't know winchesters, but that is a utica punch blade.

I agree, the general construction, blade swedges, etc look exactly like pre-WWII Utica, not Winchester. If you look at a picture of an actual Winchester you will see the difference immediately. In addition to the punch blade as edgy noted.

This seller recently had a Remington scout knife, same thing, also made out of a Utica. Someone is taking knives of lower value ($75 to $100) and restamping with high dollar stamps.

I have seen the Utica made scout knives with other tang stamps like Royal Brand, Crucible Knife Co and Challenge (yes, Challenge was a manufacturer but I believe that Utica did make some knives for them).

I have a Royal Brand marked example, will post a pic when I have the time to get one.

[ole_muddy]

Gearhead: The thing I first look at on a Winchester knife is the style of type font and spacing of the number stamp. Winchester used sans-serif number stamps and they had an even spacing although they were occasionally not aligned square-up to the tang. The numbers on this knife are NOT a Winchester font and they could have been electro-engraved; look at the tail of the 5 (3rd number), there is a spot there where the electric pencil was set down to start the burn. I have examined several thousand Winchester knives, real and otherwise, over that last 20 years and it will take you a while to get the hang of this but it's the surest way I know to spot the fakes. Plus, the knife was an obvious Utica product with the punch and can opener blades. Hope this helps some, muddy.

[OLD GAR]

Like several others, I know little about "Winchester" knives or lots of other stuff too. Here is the same knife that is on eBay, being advertised on another site.

http://www.boyscoutknife.net/vintage-bo ... ter-knife-
4950-boy-scout-bone-vintage.php

Some of this discussion about "fake" or counterfeit knives has me a little confused. One poster says the fellow at a knife show tells his customer that what he has for sale isn't original etc. etc. So the knife goes to a customer, without any traceability. The buyer may or may not be a collector, a speculator or reseller but if the knife goes on the market two or three times then who knows by then,how many parts are original or not. The guy rh-Stranger who is selling the beautiful "Case" stated in his long winded description that the knife was made up of "Parts" so how is he different than the guy at the "show"? The two disturbing things I see here is the two "shill" bidders and a buyer with more money than knowledge about the item he wanted so badly he paid nearly $500.00 for it. Will he take it to a knife show or put it on eBay again and make $1.00 on it? I doubt that is what he bought it for. Who knows a buyers motive.

I do know a little about "metal" work and I see the likelihood of someone being able to manufacture a fake "Winchester" or "Case" stamp is about as likely as me jumping over the moon. It is not "impossible" but would be fairly expensive if someone did it. Also, if a metal master was contacted to manufacture a "fake" of a registered trademark stamp, he would also be liable for some time in the pokey. The "number" stamping could be genuine or fake but not likely the "Winchester". Is an "electro-engraving" machine so cheap that a guy who is altering blade stamps could ever make enough money to pay himself enormous profits or will he make about two buck an hour?

What I do know is the vast pool of knowledge about the other issues on this site is so great and I appreciate the willingness of the more experienced members to give freely of their expertise to those of us less skilled who have a need for some kind of information of what we have or some techniques needed to restore a family treasure. Thanks! OLE GAR

[gearhead]

Much thanks muddy! Thats the info that i was looking for. Just recently started to really appreciate the winchesters and want to be informed. Only have 3 originals and i sure love the quality and backsprings are the strongest of any folders i own.

[ole_muddy]

Gearhead: What I use for reference sources are: Sargent's Guide to Knives & Razors, 3rd edition (it shows quite a few Winchesters while most of his other editions don't show any); "Antique Knives" by Bruce Voyles (it has a good section on Winchester); and two reprints of Winchester Product Catalogs, the 1923 which has limited knives and the 1926-27 catalog which is my most reliable source for checking the knife against the pattern number. All of these show up on ebay occasionally and I recommend having them all if you like Winchester knives. Of course, ignore the price guide pricing; it's as unreliable in those price guides as all the rest of them.
Also, learn what the bone jigging patterns look like; in the 1919-1924 era they were made at the Napanoch factory. In 1924 Winchester entered into a marketing agreement with E.C. Simmons Hardware and their knives were made at the Walden Knife Co. factory that Simmons owned from 1924-1933. The bone jigging on those knives is different from the Napanoch and identical to the Keen Kutter knives of that era.
In 1933 the Depression forced the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. into receivership from which they were rescued by the Western Cartridge Co and their whole operation changed at that time. Many of the knives made after 1933 are cheaper knives that, quite frankly in my opinion, are DOGS that you don't really need to bother collecting. These knives are pretty common and don't have a pattern number and the handles are generally either celluloid or black comp. The only thing they have going for them is the Winchester name.

[ole_muddy]

http://www.harpermfg.com/hm_tangstamp.html

http://www.henryaevers.com/Knife_Makers.htm

Old Gar: Here's what a quick Google search came up with for tang stamp makers and I just posted the first two that came up by searching "knife tang stamp". Since they offer custom made stamps, I would reckon you could order anything you wanted. You are welcome to check the prices, I didn't, but these things were over 100 bucks a pop twenty years ago so it took a strong expenditure even then to get a variety of sizes for any of the old makers let alone stamps for a variety of makers. As long as there's crooks there's somebody there to accommodate them.

[gearhead]

Allright, Thanks again Muddy! I will definitely add these books to my collection of refence.