Camillus WWII and before!

[upnorth]

Let's post the older Camillus knives here, so they are in one place for comparison and information. There seems to be so many places to post them, it is hard to find the right forum or thread!
If you've got an early one, or information from that time period, this is a great place to post it!
I'll kick it off! Let me introduce you to a plain old American Jack! Well, not completely plain; it does have a nickel shield as a sop to pride. But this was built for a working hand, to stand up to stuff more rigorous than opening the post, or trimming a fine cigar, although I'm sure it would achieve those tasks with alacrity.
At 4 5/16" it is no shrinking violet, and with dense blackwood handles, it has some serious heft to it.
It came to me with a few flakes of rust on it, easily shaved off with my handy-dandy 1/8" dental chisel. The chisel's steel is not hardened, and so it minimizes the risk of scratching the knife's tool steel.
It has many years of just wonderful patina. I suspect it was oiled regularly and occasionally wiped with oil, because given its senior status, it is in remarkable, snappy shape. The springs and blades are still flush in all positions.
Maybe one of you knowledgeable viewers can age it closer, but Goins indicates 1915-1916.
I confess, I made a couple of passes on my diamond Ezelap, to hone the edge. It just seemed to demand it, as it looks so ready to work, even at its advanced age!!

Thought I'd add the knifemaker's view. Nearly straight distal tapers, especially the main blade!! Thanks for looking!

[orvet]

A real Beauty Charlie!
I can't quite read the stamp on the main blade, even enlarged.
Can you write it out please?

Thanks, Dale

[upnorth]

Dale, it reads;

CAMILLUS
CUTLERY Co
NEW-YORK

Capital letters, with a small o in Co, and a hyphen in NEW-YORK.

Goins indicates 1915-1916 I believe. Probably 1916 with the serif letters. Right in the middle of WW1.

Steel liners and bolsters.

[WelderBob]

This is the oldest one I've had...a slot knife that the Red Cross gave out.
From what I've read it's some where around WWl era.

Bob

[Another Knife Collector]

Those are some super looking knives welderbob and upnorth! Some fine examples of early Camillus.

Here's a WWI Navy knife thats seen a bit of use but is still quite serviceable.

[orvet]

Here is a Camillus made in 1932.

Camillus made two releases of commemorative copies of George Washington's quill knife.
Phil Gibbs and Tom Williams both verified that this is indeed the 1932 edition.

Dating an 80 year old knife to a single year is rather unusual, especially when it is a Camillus!
It is pretty tough to do, unless it is a special edition like this one.

Dale

[upnorth]

Great old Cammys Bob, AKC and Dale! That's what I was hoping this thread would bring out!!
Let me add another;
Here is the younger and smaller brother of the big Camillus Jack from a few posts ago.
From ca. 1930, it has the 4-line stamps, and was made for a dealer called Butler Bros.
Their trademark for pocketknives was "Warranted Never Dull", as the etch says.
This knife is not that sharp; maybe that's why the Butlers went out of business ca. 1940!!??
Whatever, it is still a purty knife, and given what I've seen of other Camillus knives of this era, I've no doubt it'll sharpen fine. But I'm not willing to give up any molecules on this safe queen! ( a hint of the collector mentality!)

[orvet]

That is excellent Charlie!
That knife was made to work. It is almost a shame to make it a safe-queen.

Pic #1 – The four-line stamp used pre-war and during WWII,

Pic #2 – This three-line stamp used after the four-line stamp in pic #1; 1946-1956 as per Goins. Personally, I question that start date. I have seen this stamp on a number of military type folders. I see no need for the military to order large quantities of military knives after the war was over. It is my opinion that this stamp likely used in 1945 and possibly as early as 1944. However, at this point in time that is my opinion only. I have not been able to establish that for certain.

In my discussions with Tom Williams I have learned it is not possible to precisely date Camillus by the tang stamps. Tom said, “They never threw anything away at the cutlery.” A tang stamp could be used at a later date according to him. He seemed to indicate that a worker might grab an old tang stamp and use it when they didn’t have a new one available.

Pic #3 – Syracuse Knife Co. – According to Goins, this stamp was used by Camillus from 1935 to 1940.


Lets see some more guys!

Dale

[upnorth]

Here's a 3 1/2" Jack with Ebony handles. It has the 4-line stamp on the pen blade, and the Crossed Swords on the Main.

[upnorth]

This is a 3 1/2" also, same handle pattern, with a clip main, and different wood. Looks more like rosewood than cocabola.
4 line stamps.

[orvet]

The crossed swords indicate that the knife is a Camillus Sword Brand.
This name was reserved for the top-of-the-line Camillus knives.
The Sword Brand knives are Camillus' very best.

Nice knives!

Dale

[upnorth]

Thanks Dale!!

[orvet]

Here's another Camillus that dates to the World War II era. I think it predates the war but I'm not sure. I talked to Mike Silvey about it last year at the show and he thinks they were made for the military, but is not positive. Therefore, he did not include them in his book Pocket Knives of the US Military.

I definitely think it's from the prewar era or early during the war, judging from the bone on the handles.

Dale

[upnorth]

That's a real treasure, Dale! Bone handled TLs are the cat's meow!!!

[upnorth]

I've posted this little knife a couple of years ago, somewhere on the internet, but it is probably my favorite Camillus, and it belongs here fer shur!
The knife is full, with what I call perfect patina (just right for its age!). And the jigging is scaled exquisitely to suit the knife! And the blades are nice and snappy.
Thanks Knifeaholic for agreeing to part with it! I'm sure the money went for a nice little Case knife!

[upnorth]

BTW, has anyone found these stamps in a reference? They look like the 4-line, without the 4th line!!??

[knife7knut]

I posted this in the General forum but thought those who peruse here would enjoy it as well.Picked this up this weekend at an antique shop for $10.Easy open jack that looks to still have the original(albeit a little rough)factory edge on it.What I think is a bit unusual is that the bolsters and pins are two different types of steel(sort of German like)and the pen blade has a straight kick instead of the more normal round or concave shape.There is a nice overall gray patina with some pitting on the blades;shield and scales are in great shape.Three line with no USA stamp.From my limited knowledge it appears to be from the first decade of the 20th century.

[upnorth]

Great find for $10 knife7knut. Nice that it hasn't been cleaned or buffed. Too bad about the rough edge, but I'd personally keep it as is, esp. if the edge is factory!
I have a strong feeling that's an early stamp, but can't prove it.

[knife7knut]

Aside from a little Q-tip action and a bit of mineral oil,it will be left as found.I have enough EDC's already.

[orvet]

Since that tang stamp has the serifs on the letters, I do believe it is an early one.
I know they used a 3-line stamp before going to the 4-line that they used up through about 1946.
I would guess that your stamp dates to around WWI, perhaps older.

I was reading a thread in BF on Camillus dating (in Bernard Levine's Forum).
In that thread Bernard made a profound statement: "Dating by markings is STILL a fool's game."
This is especially true of Camillus.
Tom Williams told me on more than one occasion that they never threw anything away at Camillus.
Old tang stamps were sometimes used at a later date, especially if it was for a special run of knives.

It seems that Camillus was years ahead of the rest of the world when it came to recycling.
Tom told me a story of Camillus using the leftover and defective blanks from their WWII production of the Marine Raider Stiletto. The defective and overrun blanks were kept around the cutlery. Some time after the war Camillus poured a new concrete pad to expand one of the buildings. The defective and overrun blanks from the Marine Raider Stiletto project where dumped in the concrete in the new pad to provide extra reinforcement.
In Tom’s words, "They never threw away anything at the cutlery."

This was true of the tang stamps as well.
So Bernard's comment about dating by tang stamp is doubly true of Camillus.

What you can apply here is probably Bernard's most famous quote; "Read the Knife."
When I read your knife, the style, and materials; the steel bolsters and ebony handles in that beautiful teardrop easy opener pattern with the high spine, it speaks to me of the era leading up to WWI and shortly after. I would place the date at about 1912 to the early 1920s.

When what I read of the knife reinforces what I think the tang stamp says, I feel better about dating the knife.

BTW, That is a beautiful old jack!!!
If you ever get tired of looking at it, I would be happy to take it off your hands!


Dale

[msteele6]

-

I would agree with Mr. Levine in general, however, while it may be a fool's game to date a knife solely from its markings, it's just as much of a fools game to completely ignore the markings when trying to put an approximate date on a knife. For example, which of us would arbitrarily ignore the Case/Tested XX on a Case knife and say "Well, the markings mean nothing with regard to the production date of the knife?"

Certainly the tang stampings on a Camillus can't be taken as absolute gospel because there are exceptions, but does the existence of exceptions render the general rule (as given, e.g., in Goins') meaningless? By the way, Mr. Levine himself puts approximate dates for tang stampings in his guide.

The knife in question is a perfect example. The markings as dated by Goins would date this knife to the late 1910's - 1920's and after some discussion I believe that that is the consensus of those who have read the knife.

I think Mr. Levine's point is that some people want to simply read the tang stamp and assume that that stamping tells the whole story and is to be accepted as authoritative.

-

[knife7knut]

Tom told me a story of Camillus using the leftover and defective blanks from their WWII production of the Marine Raider Stiletto. The defective and overrun blanks were kept around the cutlery. Some time after the war Camillus poured a new concrete pad to expand one of the buildings. The defective and overrun blanks from the Marine Raider Stiletto project where dumped in the concrete in the new pad to provide extra reinforcement.
In Tom’s words, "They never threw away anything at the cutlery."



BTW, That is a beautiful old jack!!!
If you ever get tired of looking at it, I would be happy to take it off your hands!


Dale

Thanks for the input Dale.I remember reading about the burying of all the old knives and there was an article in one of the old knife magazines with pictures showing them excavating that very spot.Really sad to see a bunch of old knives partially sticking out of hardened concrete.I'll have to see if I can find that article;I think it was in one of the old Knife Digest's or Knives 19XX .
It is definitely a beautiful old knife even though it has some condition issues.I have a lot of really old knives in similar shape and often wonder what tales they could tell if they could only talk.Don't think I'll get tired of it any time soon but I'll keep you in mind if I do.

[WelderBob]

Dale, I believe your right about the tang stamp's used in WWll.
These two are from that period, the USA is a 4 line and the
MD-USN is the 3 line. You see some difference in the blade
profile and the lengh of the screwdriver...I'm thinking when
dies wore out and new one's made some changes were made,
tang stamps also...JMO. The USA is all steel, but the MD has
brass liners. How many zillion of these did they make....

[orvet]

This information is from a hand written sheet entitled:
“Principal Items delivered to Armed Forces During WWII From 1941 To 1946 By Camillus Cutlery Co.”

Notice that it is “Principal Items…” In other words these are the main categories of knives. Noticeably absent from this list is the Marine Raider Stiletto. Of course only a few hundred of these were ever made during the war.

I received a copy of this list from Tom Williams (CAMCO). Tom worked for Camillus for 30 years. His Mother worked for Camillus about 55 years. Tom was the official Historian for Camillus when he worked there.

I am assuming that the MD USN knife you have is what they call the “Navy 4 blade knives.” The total they have for that knife is 2,564,220

I think your other knife with U.S.A. on the escutcheon what they call “Army or Engr Knives.” The total listed for that is 3,282,988.

The total number of knives delivered in these “Principal Items” categories was 14,895,881. It seems to me that I heard somewhere; the total number of knives supplied to the U.S. Government by Camillus during WWII was about 17,000,000 (17 million), but I could be mistaken.

Incidentally, the total number of “Signal Corps Elec Knives” (TL-29) is listed as 2,183,136. No wonder you can still find them everywhere as reasonable prices.

Dale

[Miller Bro's]

Dale,

How many of the U.S.M.C. utility knives did they make?