sailor's knives

knife-nut · Post by **knife-nut** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:11 am

I was wondering if any one knows why the bails on some old sailors knives are made out of copper instead of steel?

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:20 am

Probably rust

knife-nut · Post by **knife-nut** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:39 pm

I don't think rust was the issue, because several of these have steel liners, bolsters and blades, then they use a brass bail. I've seen a lot of different brands built this way. Schatt and Morgan, Keen Kutter, and several old Sheffield brands.

Mossdancer · Post by **Mossdancer** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:10 pm

glennbad · Post by **glennbad** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:44 pm

I've never seen any with copper bails. However, I find that designs like those are usually made with a purpose, such as the blades not being pointy, etc. Are the bails malleable? Maybe they were meant to be able to bend and twist. Perhaps steel bails were too stiff.

Got any pics?

Glenn

knife-nut · Post by **knife-nut** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:32 pm

This one is a old Keen Kutter.

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:04 pm

If you have Levine's Guide (4th Edition)...the top Sailor's knife on page 200, is shown with a copper bail. Doesn't explain why, just that it is copper.

I have a small bolsterless (shadow) pen knife. It has a brass bail, even though no other parts of the knife are brass.

These were probably made to give us something to post about when things get slow.

Bill

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:02 pm

bail material during the war might have been influenced by availability and conservation of steel. or the manufactures design. or????

longbeachbum · Post by **longbeachbum** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:05 pm

jonet143 wrote:bail material during the war might have been influenced by availability and conservation of steel. or the manufactures design. or????

This is my guess as well. Most and possibly all of the copper bailed rigging knives I've seen come from the WWII era, and this would make sense. If there's a part on a knife where you can afford to skimp on materials without compromising performance, it's the bail.

Now, if someone who actually KNOWS the answer would come along, we'd be getting somewhere!

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:55 am

Hi, I don't know the answer. The WWII knife I posted in the foreign forum has a steel bail. Just to add more confusion to the issue

s-k

HickoryNut · Post by **HickoryNut** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:55 am

The reason is simple, copper is more flexible and forgiving. A sailor's knife is his life line alot of times. In a bind the copper will usually bend without breaking like steel. Sailors would rather have a bent bail than loose a life saving knife overboard.

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:01 pm

Thought this one was a little unusual, because of the stag handles. It's 4&3/4" long. Isn't that a little bigger than most of the old ones? Seems like the ones I've seen are shorter. The blade and the can opener are stamped, Hunter, over Sheffield(no country of origin). Iron bolsters, iron liners, copper bail.
What do you think S-K? How old? Was stag common on these knives?
Any comment will be appreciated. I bought this knife out of Alaska, of all places. Thanks.
...CCBill...

El Lobo · Post by **El Lobo** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:14 pm

That is a very cool old knife!

Bill

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:42 pm

Hi CCBill. Very nice knife there. Stag was the choice handle material for this type of knife before man made composites took over. From around the time of WW1 onwards these tended to have either all metal handles or the black/grey composite handles e.g. knifenut's posting earlier in the thread. Hunter could be M Hunter and Sons. Any other marks? M Hunter knives often had a buggle or a bison trademark. IMO opinion the lack of England is not particularly helpful because this would only be found on a knife made for the US market after 1891. It has a can opener, so when did rations start coming in tins that required an opener? Not my area of expertise but I would say late 1800s. So my best semi-educated estimate would be 1880s-1910ish. I'll see if I can find anything else.

s-k

The other interesting little detail is the clam shell type design on the ends of the bail. Compared with the plain ends on knife-nut's knife. Suggests a Victorian era feature.

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:17 pm

Hi S-K...
Thanks for the response. The only other markings I can find are a capital letter "I", with an up-pointed arrow above it. These marks are found on the back of both the blade and the can opener. The condition of the stag is great for a knife of this age. There is a small piece missing on the back. It broke at the pin that holds the spike in. Other than that, it is great. Takes pliers to open the opener. Very stout spring. Spike walks and talks(lightly). Blade seems tight. It proably just needs a good cleaning.
Thanks, again.
...CCBill...

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:53 pm

Hi CCBill. That sounds like an arrow with three equal lines. See my post of the WWII knife in the European section. If similar, that was originally called the admiralty arrow. It dates back to the late 1600s and subsequently became the symbol attached to all government issued equipment. Prisoners to the colonies in the good old days used to be marked with this too. So your knife was a genuine army/navy issue which I think adds to its interest. If it is an arrow and a capital I that is more interesting. That indicates that it was govenment issue for the troops in India. There was arrow and C for Canada, arrow and N for Navy, arrow and WD for war department etc. The various distinctions were dropped in the early part of the 1900. Great find. It must have quite a story behind it to end up in Alaska. Thanks for sharing with us.

s-k

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:27 pm

WOW!!! Thank you for the info. The arrow is the same as on your 1942 knife, just with the "I" under it. How it made it to Alaska is anybody's guess.
I KNEW I bought more than one knife when I bought this one. I ACTUALLY found the other 2. I hadn't seen these knives in, probably, 25 years.
The top one is the Hunter. Yes, the arrow is the 3 equal lines.
The middle one(blade and can opener) is marked Wade & Butcher, over Sheffield, over England on the blade only. Can't find any more marks.
The bottom one is marked ( on the curved blade), Johnson, over Western, over Works, over Sheffield. The word "Works" has a flagpole running thru it. I can't quite make out the letters on the flag. The other blade is marked Made in Sheffield. The copper loop on this one has the same design on it, as the Hunter. Snap is great on both blades. Looks like somebody set out to replace the hinge pin, but I feel like the blades are original to the frame.
Any comments on these are most certainly welcome and appreciated. Thanks again.
...CCBill...

sunburst · Post by **sunburst** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:09 am

I am going to go ahead and pop some popcorn as I enjoy reading all the wonderful information you guys are sharing...Keep it going I still have some popcorn left and this is better than anything on TV anyday...

Thanks for sharing,

Sunburst

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:22 pm

Excellent CCBill. The Wade and Butcher with England on it means it was made for export to the US from 1891 onward in accordance with the regulations associated with the McKinley Tariff. Large import duties crippled the Sheffield knife industry in the US but I supppose was a critical factor in developing the fledgling US cultery industry. The other sounds like a Christopher Johnson Western Works. The trade mark was a C J on a flag. Probably all from that same general period 1880s to 1900ish. Thanks again

s-k

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:15 pm

Thank you very much, s-k, I certainly appreciate it. It's really odd that the 3 of these would wind up in Alaska, together.
I don't really collect this sort of knives and I think I may put them on the swap page.
Ya'll be thinking about it.
I also have one of the rotating Schrade-Walden display cases, but mine is wood-grained, instead of painted. If I can find it, I am going to put it up, too.

s-k, if you or anybody else has any more info on these British knives, PLEASE jump in. They are old and interesting.
...CCBill...
[email protected]

longbeachbum · Post by **longbeachbum** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:00 am

Hey Bill:

I'm feeling generous today, so why don't you trade me one of those rusty old sailors knives from the days of the tall ships for this beautiful 2004 Case riggers knife with gen-u-ine jigged delrin scales?

I know, I know, I must be crazy, right? But hey -- I'm just a giver, what can I say...

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:34 am

Hey, longbeachbum.
Not bad, thanks. Problem is, I really don't care for this particular style of knife. I really like Case, but I am more into natural material handles. Got any tiny trappers or baby docs, mid-size folding hunters? They are more my style.
If you'd like, email me at home. Thanks, again.
...CCBill...

[email protected]

longbeachbum · Post by **longbeachbum** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:07 am

CCBill wrote:Hey, longbeachbum.
Not bad, thanks. Problem is, I really don't care for this particular style of knife. I really like Case, but I am more into natural material handles. Got any tiny trappers or baby docs, mid-size folding hunters? They are more my style.
If you'd like, email me at home. Thanks, again.
...CCBill...

[email protected]

I was just kidding. Those knives of yours are splendid as well as being examples of living history. My $35 Case rigging knife is as run of the mill as they come. I guess I have to work on my irony.

But, if you have any musty old Marine Raider knves that saw action at Iwo Jima, or maybe a Sheffield bowie that someone toted during the Civil War, I'd be more than happy to trade you straight across for some BRAND NEW ones that were hand made by Chinese cutlery craftsmen...how's that?

glennbad · Post by **glennbad** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:27 pm

Sorry to butt-in guys. I don't really collect the Marlinspike knives, but I do have a few examples.

Here is a mint Ted Williams Bosn's mate knife:

And here's a slightly used version without the lock:

Thanks for sharing your stuff...

Glenn

CCBill · Post by **CCBill** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:55 pm

How nice!!!
You are most certainly NOT butting in. When was this Ted Williams knife made? It is a beauty!!!
What else is out there? Somewhere, I have one that was made by Case Metal Stampings, Ltd., in Canada, in the late 40's. Guess I need to head back down into the dungeon and see what I can find. I oiled the creaking, clanging doors, but the pest control man is scared to go down there.
Funny, but you can still hear strange noises and what sounds like chains rattling down there. Might not be the best place to keep my knives. I dunno...
...CCBill...

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