Half Knives

[btrwtr]

I agree with Wayne, totally.

I tend to stick with the terms Bernie Levine used in his books.

When was it decided that a Congress Pen had to have four blades?

I don’t know what a “slip joint” is.

I don’t know why every Wharnecliff shaped pen knife is now called a Seahorse. Only Case makes a Seahorse.

I don’t know why Robeson pocketknives are called, “Robies”, but I do understand why Catts are called Catts.

Utica knives are not, “Utes”. Case are not, “Casies”.

Napanochs are not, “Nappies”.

Winchesters are not, “Winnies”.

And for goodness sake, why are we calling Remingtons, “Remies”.

It’s language laziness.

Let’s free up our tongues and become more multisyllabic.

[QTCut5]

I'm not sure if you guys are just being facetious about the "half" designation somehow suggesting that a knife is not a "complete" or "whole" knife, but I think it's obvious that when a knife is referred to as a half-something (whittler, congress, stockman, etc.), it's simply a reference to the fewer number of blades as compared to what would generally be considered a standard whittler, congress, stockman, etc., and a way to differentiate between the two. As far as meaning, interpretation and understanding, "half-congress" and "two-blade congress" both communicate the same information to anyone who cares or knows anything about knives. I don't believe anyone would seriously think a half-congress means an incomplete or partial knife any more than a "half moon" literally means one half of the actual matter of the moon. That's absurd! Some hidebound knife purists may not like the use of "half" but I'm pretty sure they know exactly what it means just as they would know what is meant when a swing guard pattern is called a "cheetah" even if it's not a Case knife. Maybe it's not as precise but the meaning is clear nonetheless. As far as manufacturers not using "half" to describe a particular pattern in the past, that does not invalidate its use today. Language is dynamic and always changing which is why the OED is constantly being updated and why we aren't still speaking the Elizabethan English that was spoken by Shakespeare.

[Dinadan]

~ Some hidebound knife purists may not like the use of "half" ~

Language is dynamic and always changing which is why the OED is constantly being updated and why we aren't still speaking the Elizabethan English that was spoken by Shakespeare.

There are a few folks who are not too happy about the changes since Shakespeare's English, and I guess I am one of them. I freely admit to being a bit facetious with some of my comments, possibly even absurd. That is just who I am, but that does not necessarily invalidate my viewpoint, though I suppose it might annoy some folks.

Q, you have been on this forum for over ten years. Surely you know by now that hidebound knife purists exactly and precisely describes some of us! In my opinion, it is discussions like this one that make this forum so much fun. Facetious, absurd, hidebound: they are way more fun than grim seriousness and correctness. Just my opinion: I certainly do not speak for anyone else.

[QTCut5]

Close the bonnet and put the torch and spanner in the boot then take the lorry to the flat and fetch my jumper and trainers from the loo.

Not how I would say it, but it's a perfectly valid sentence. Meaning is understood despite the use of certain words in a different context.

Be as hidebound as you like, but please don't invalidate other methods of expression that differ from yours, especially when you fully understand what they mean.

[bighomer]

Hey I'm having fun.
12 blade congress.

6 blade congress or half congress if the 12 could be considered a full congress.

Maybe a 1/12th congress, fractions was never my strong point.

[ThatWeirdKnifeGuy]

Real question here, not poking the hornets nest.

Is the number of backsprings to be considered? Similar to how a pen knife is both a consideration of its length and having both blades ride the same spring.

I, if it were put to a vote, would vote for a nomenclature system which uses length and shape of handles to determine name, number of and types of blades would be qualifying or supporting information. Thus the original knives in question with 4 blades and 2 blades would be 4 Blade Congress and 2 Blade Congress respectively.

I think that the language around a hobby evolving is a sign of good health. Another user doesn't like the trend of knick names for brands or patterns, and I generally agree that we shouldn't dumb language down every chance we get. But how cool would it be to hear your grandchild say "look at the nice bones on that sweet old Remmy!", you know what I mean?

[QTCut5]

I try not to get too upset over names and labels as long as they communicate effectively so that I know what is intended. Calling a two-blade congress or whittler a "half-congress" or "half-whittler" does not bother me; I get the idea either way. It is strange that some knives get the "half" prefix when the traditional number of blades is reduced and others don't. For instance, you rarely hear anyone calling a single blade trapper or canoe a "half-trapper" or a "half-canoe". When I think about those examples, I understand better why "half-congress" and "half-whittler" would make some folks cringe.

In my 10+ years on AAPK I've seen similar conversations to this one nit-picking over precisely what constitutes a Wharncliffe or a split spring whittler. One member (Ken, IIRC) has also made the point that it's entirely unnecessary to use the term "back spring" since every folding knife only has a spring(s) in one place (i.e., there are no front springs or side springs, top or bottom springs, etc.) Nevertheless, people continue to use the term "back spring(s)", call a two-spring whittler with a wedge separating the springs a "split spring" and any knife that has the characteristic blade with a straight edge and sloping spine a "Wharncliffe" regardless of the frame it's attached to (perhaps that explains why "seahorse" is increasingly being used to describe the serpentine frame traditionally known as a Wharncliffe).

[FRJ]

Here is an early and unusual little Canastota Knife Co. N.Y. knife, 2 1/4" closed.

What a little beauty that knife is.

[Dinadan]

Be as hidebound as you like, but please don't invalidate other methods of expression that differ from yours, especially when you fully understand what they mean.

Is discussing the same as invalidating? The whole point of this forum is communicating. We do not do cancel culture here. Folks may have been talking about usages that they do not like or wish would change. Even complaining about them. But so far, you, Q, are the only one telling anyone to shut up.

In my 10+ years on AAPK I've seen similar conversations to this one nit-picking over precisely what constitutes a Wharncliffe or a split spring whittler.

If you stick around another ten years you will probably see the same discussions again - more than once. Those are some of my favorite kind of threads: and so is this one!

[QTCut5]

But so far, you, Q, are the only one telling anyone to shut up.

What? I just re-read my posts and I honestly don't understand how you got that idea, Mel. In all my 10+ years on AAPK I have never and would never say or suggest that another member "shut up" and I certainly didn't intend or expect any of my comments in this thread would be interpreted that way Not sure what I said that offended you, but my use of the term "hidebound" was not pejorative, it was simply a way of saying "set in their ways and unwilling to change" but I never said there was anything bad or wrong with that. I can be hidebound myself on certain issues. The point I was trying to make (not entirely successfully, apparently), is that even though some folks may object to the use of "half" to describe certain knives, they still surely know what is meant by it. That is all.

[Dinadan]

But so far, you, Q, are the only one telling anyone to shut up.

What? I just re-read my posts and I honestly don't understand how you got that idea, Mel.

Well, in that case I apologize, Q. Clearly I misconstrued a couple of your posts.

[edge213]

While I don't use or agree with the term "half congress" I do see that some would call a 2 blade congress a half congress. (What is a 3 blade congress?)

But, I don't understand "half whittler" at all. A whittler is a 3 bladed knife with the master closing between the 2 secondary blades at the other end. Be it "split back" "split spring" or "three spring" whittler. Take away a blade and it is no longer a whittler.

"Half stockman" what exactly is that? A jack knife? To me "half stockman" may make the least sense off all.

The little boy next door says aminal instead of animal, I know what he means, but still still try to correct him.

[QTCut5]

The little boy next door says aminal instead of animal, I know what he means, but still still try to correct him.

I think that's a totally different situation, David. "Aminal" is an unintentional mispronunciation of a word, but the intended meaning is the same. When someone adds "half" to a knife name, they are intentionally altering the original word for the purpose of conveying a different meaning.

A better example might be "cannitler" which is an obvious portmanteau of "canoe" and "whittler" and is used to describe a 3-blade canoe. Also a "gunboat" which is yet another variation of a canoe that connotes a larger size frame in addition to 3 blades. In my experience, these terms seem to be generally considered acceptable and commonly used.

I'm curious how others (particularly the "hidebound knife purists" ) feel about these altered canoe names and if they are technically any different than adding "half" to stockman or whittler to describe a version with a different blade configuration from a standard stockman or whittler but with the same frame geometry. (seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I am sincerely curious )

Personally, just like with the "half" terms, the canoe terms don't bother me, although I don't use them myself. I understand the intended meaning and I don't try to correct others when they choose to say "cannitler" to describe what I prefer to call a 3-blade canoe. But that's just me, YMMV

[Modern Slip Joints]

Q, can we agree that Mumbleypeg's conittler has gorgeous stag? IIRC, the name canittler is on some knive's factory boxes. We only need to repeat conittler enough times online then conittler might end up on box labels as well.

[QTCut5]

Q, can we agree that Mumbleypeg's conittler has gorgeous stag? IIRC, the name canittler is on some knive's factory boxes. We only need to repeat conittler enough times online then conittler might end up on box labels as well.

Yes, we can absolutely agree that Ken's 3-blade congress has gorgeous stag!!! Not sure we can agree about calling it a "conittler" though, although I understand the intent of the derivation. I suspect if enough people and especially manufacturers started using "conittler" it would probably eventually catch on and become normalized much like "cannitler" has.

BTW--quick side note on the spelling of "cannitler". It makes no sense to me how or why Canal Street chose to spell it with two "n"s instead of two "t"s since the two words it's combining are "canoe" and "whittler". Seems obvious that it should be spelled "canittler" since there's only one "n" between the two words and there are clearly two "t"s. But there you have it....no rhyme or reason Furthermore, in what to me seems like redundant overkill, Canal Street called their 3-blade canoe a "three blade cannitler" which essentially translates to mean "a three blade three blade canoe whittler"

[Modern Slip Joints]

Q, Your Cannitler has beautiful amber cut bone stag! Although it was ignored, I wrote earlier in this thread that I think it is best for collectors to use names the manufacturer used at the time a collector item was produced. That includes the manufacturer's deliberate mis-spellings. There are better examples in guns but it is very common for car model names to not be correctly spelled words and no one suggests we should not use their manufacturer''s assortment of letters for their names.

If I recall correctly some of the U.S. Queen company's boxes were labeled canittler. (Spelled the way we think it should be.) I want to say the same for Case but I'm even less sure of that. Queen also made very nice stag conittlers. I had to mention them to further the progress of conittler being "normalized."

[Dinadan]

Although it was ignored, I wrote earlier in this thread that I think it is best for collectors to use names the manufacturer used at the time a collector item was produced. That includes the manufacturer's deliberate mis-spellings. There are better examples in guns but it is very common for car model names to not be correctly spelled words and no one suggests we should not use their manufacturer''s assortment of letters for their names.

I do not disagree with you in principle ... but for some older knives that could require a bit of research. And then, once you research it, only folks who have also also done the research will know what you are saying.

[Thomasg]

Having collected and studied pocket knives since the later 1960s, my recollection is those “half-“ terms originated with collectors in the 1970s. Originally there was the “half-whittler”, which never made any sense to me anyway because a whittler has three blades. So does a half-whittler have 1-1/2 blades? Cutlery company catalogs historically called the pattern a “pen” knife”.

I have read that at some point Case marketing adopted the term and started calling it a “half-whittler” in their catalog (Case still called the 6208 a “pen knife” as recent as their 1981 catalog, and the 6269 two-blade Congress was also a “pen”). “Half- whittler” was a well understood term in the collector world several years before that, but early and mid-1970s sales flyers oriented to collectors from James Parker, James Frost and others listed the 08 pattern as a pen knife, not a “half-whittler”.

I never heard of a “half-congress” until a few years ago. Relative to “half-whittler” it’s a newer term. “Half-stockman” is even newer - possibly an EBay concoction.

I agree with Wayne but vocabulary seems to change more with the popularity of social media, on-line marketing, and more new collectors involved in the hobby who don’t know (or care) about the old norms. Regardless whether we agree I think we know what they’re describing.

Ken

[C-WADE7]

I don’t mind the terms “whittler, half whittler, half congress” they make it a lot easier to describe than “pen knife”. Which pen knife the 08, 83, 052 or what if it’s a different maker than Case?? These terms have been made to simplify the pattern identification I feel. No slip joint….. I don’t understand the use of this term.

[btrwtr]

Using the word half to describe something that is in fact whole is somewhat of an oxymoron in my opinion. Other than knives I can't think of any other whole, single objects that are regularly described as being a half. I suppose there may be some, but I can't think of any. Not being facetious. A two-blade knife is not half of a three-blade knife. A two-blade congress is a two-blade congress not half of a congress knife since a congress pattern can have any number of blades. I do know what people mean when they say a knife is a one half congress knife but at the same time I think the term is, in itself, contradictory. When I hear half whittler, I really don't know what to expect to see other than a Case 6208 but I know it won't be an actual half of a whittler pattern knife. A stockman pattern in my mind has three or more blades so I can’t really wrap my head around what a half stockman is.

Again, I tend to go along what B. Levine has defined as far as patterns go. The hobby and terminology is changing but like many other things in today’s world I can’t say that I like the direction.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/half

[Sharpnshinyknives]

Why don’t we just call them a “partial” Congress, whittler, etc. I don’t know what to call a pattern with “more” blades than the usual found on a particular pattern. I suppose quote the number of blades in the description.
Interesting discussion.

[edge213]

Using the word half to describe something that is in fact whole is somewhat of an oxymoron in my opinion. Other than knives I can't think of any other whole, single objects that are regularly described as being a half. I suppose there may be some, but I can't think of any. Not being facetious. A two-blade knife is not half of a three-blade knife. A two-blade congress is a two-blade congress not half of a congress knife since a congress pattern can have any number of blades. I do know what people mean when they say a knife is a one half congress knife but at the same time I think the term is, in itself, contradictory. When I hear half whittler, I really don't know what to expect to see other than a Case 6208 but I know it won't be an actual half of a whittler pattern knife. A stockman pattern in my mind has three or more blades so I can’t really wrap my head around what a half stockman is.

Again, I tend to go along what B. Levine has defined as far as patterns go. The hobby and terminology is changing but like many other things in today’s world I can’t say that I like the direction.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/half

EXACTLY!!
If you eliminate a blade from a whittler, by definition, it is no longer a whittler. Certainly not a half whittler.

[bighomer]

Some say old Abe was tote'n a 6 blade congress when he was shot. I wasn't there so I can't verify it. There's an amazing group of knife manufacturers that have produce a 6 blade congress pattern. I've seen photos.
I've had fun with this discussion, but I'm still with Wayne and the other like minded folk ain't no such thing as a half congress, whittler or any knife unless it was cut half in two.

[danno50]

Again, very well said Wayne. I agree completely.

[edgy46]

Some say old Abe was tote'n a 6 blade congress when he was shot. I wasn't there so I can't verify it. There's an amazing group of knife manufacturers that have produce a 6 blade congress pattern. I've seen photos.
I've had fun with this discussion, but I'm still with Wayne and the other like minded folk ain't no such thing as a half congress, whittler or any knife unless it was cut half in two.

The knife Lincoln was carrying when he was shot is in a museum somewhere.
I have seen pictures of it, but I don’t remember where.