Half Knives

[QTCut5]

Just to show how silly the whole thing is, do you call this a whittler, or a 3/4 Congress?

Ken

Call it what you like, I'm calling it gorgeous! Ken, I have not seen that cool tang stamp before....what's the story on that?

[Mumbleypeg]

Just to show how silly the whole thing is, do you call this a whittler, or a 3/4 Congress?

Ken

Call it what you like, I'm calling it gorgeous! Ken, I have not seen that cool tang stamp before....what's the story on that?

I can only tell you that as far as I know that stamp was used only twice. First time was on a limited edition three-pattern set called the Circle C Series, in 1986. The three patterns (all Congress frames) were G62088, 53088, and R64088. The G62088 has moss green jigged bone covers, the R64088 has “dark red-ish” (my description, not Case’s) jigged bone, and the 53088 is of course sambar stag. The date code stamp is on the master blade pile side (picture below). Those three knives were offered as a serialized set, with the serial number engraved on the mark side right bolster. All were individually boxed in a unique red box. In keeping with the 88 Congress pattern, all blades have long pulls. I’ve never seen one without a serial number so don’t think they were available as open stock. The 53088 is the only knife I have from the set. I bought it years ago from AAPK member zp4ja (Nevada Jerry) in an AAPK auction benefit for Wounded Warrior Project.

The stamp appeared again in 1989, after Parker bought Case, on a sowbelly stag pattern called 521500 with a razor secondary. Since the pattern was one made in Parker’s Alabama factory (now Bear & Son), the knife obviously was made there. To my knowledge the stamp hasn’t been used again.

We need to hope knifeaholic Steve sees this and has more info, ‘cuz that’s all I’ve got.

Ken

[RobesonsRme.com]

I agree with Wayne, totally.

I tend to stick with the terms Bernie Levine used in his books.

When was it decided that a Congress Pen had to have four blades?

I don’t know what a “slip joint” is.

I don’t know why every Wharnecliff shaped pen knife is now called a Seahorse. Only Case makes a Seahorse.

I don’t know why Robeson pocketknives are called, “Robies”, but I do understand why Catts are called Catts.

Utica knives are not, “Utes”. Case are not, “Casies”.

Napanochs are not, “Nappies”.

Winchesters are not, “Winnies”.

And for goodness sake, why are we calling Remingtons, “Remies”.

It’s language laziness.

Let’s free up our tongues and become more multisyllabic.

[btrwtr]

Just to show how silly the whole thing is, do you call this a whittler, or a 3/4 Congress?

Ken

Because it is a congress and a whittler, I would call it a congress whittler and am pretty sure would too Ken. It's a nice-looking whole knife so I wouldn't call it 1/2, 3/16, 3/4 or anything less.

[Reverand]

Just to show how silly the whole thing is, do you call this a whittler, or a 3/4 Congress?

Ken

Technically, Levine called it a "Congress Whittler", as Congress is the frame design, and Whittler is the blade layout.
Personally, I would like to call it "mine"!

I do not get upset at any of the terms. So many different manufacturers used different names for their patterns, and in different parts of the country and the world the pattern names differ.
I have met people who called any traditional pocket knife a "Case" knife, no matter who made it. My Father-in-law called a butter knife a "Case knife". It is weird, but I don't try to correct them.

I like having a standard set of pattern names among collectors that don't change by region or manufacturer, but I don't know that we will ever get there.

[Mumbleypeg]

Thanks for the comments. I call it a congress whittler too, and IIRC that's what Case called it when they were peddling it. I was just being a smart*ss when I posted the "3/4 congress" question.

I love Charlie's take on the situation, but I'm afraid that horse is already out of the barn. I'm just glad there's a group of collectors who care enough to create new names for them, even if they're names I've never used! For some reason the "slip joint" term especially irritates me but I'm not sure why.

Ken

[philco]

Bunch of picky, tight-a** knife snobs . . . .






I say this in jest, but just wait, someone will be greatly offended

Chris I'm highly offended. As soon as I figure out why, I'll let you know.

[doglegg]

Bunch of picky, tight-a** knife snobs . . . .






I say this in jest, but just wait, someone will be greatly offended

Chris I'm highly offended. As soon as I figure out why, I'll let you know.

[Stakeknife]

The whole thread is half baked.

[1967redrider]

What would a Camillus 72 without a Pen blade be called. I guess it would be whatever Camillus says it is.

[Gunsil]

I agree with Wayne too. Half congress just cracks me up as does half whittler. I have little use for these inane terms but I do regard those who use them as undereducated.

[Modern Slip Joints]

[...] I don’t know what a “slip joint” is. [...]

[...] For some reason the "slip joint" term especially irritates me but I'm not sure why.

Ken

When I joined this forum slip joint appeared to be universally understood and not controversial. I still do not know how long slip joint has been in knife vocabulary. Please educate me. By modern I meant roughly post 1970 but still traditionally constructed. In other words fairly new as opposed to pre-1960 expensive collector knives. Sorry to irritate you or or make myself sound uneducated but I do not change screen names so forum members will continue to recognize me.

[Dinadan]

When I joined this forum slip joint appeared to be universally understood and not controversial. I still do not know how long slip joint has been in knife vocabulary. Please educate me. By modern I meant roughly post 1970 but still traditionally constructed. In other words fairly new as opposed to pre-1960 expensive collector knives. Sorry to irritate you or or make myself sound uneducated but I do not change screen names so forum members will continue to recognize me.

Maybe we will let you slip.

Until Buck 110s became popular in the 1970s, every folding knife I encountered was a slip joint. I had no need to label the mechanism because all the pocket knives that I saw were made the same. So my use of the term slip joint is a response to the proliferation of lock backs and liner locks. I do not recall ever seeing the term slip joint before I joined this forum, but is a useful way to describe a knife.

Is there another word or phrase for a slip joint knife? If there is a synonym I would like to learn about it.

[Mumbleypeg]

[...] I don’t know what a “slip joint” is. [...]

[...] For some reason the "slip joint" term especially irritates me but I'm not sure why.

Ken

When I joined this forum slip joint appeared to be universally understood and not controversial. I still do not know how long slip joint has been in knife vocabulary. Please educate me. By modern I meant roughly post 1970 but still traditionally constructed. In other words fairly new as opposed to pre-1960 expensive collector knives. Sorry to irritate you or or make myself sound uneducated but I do not change screen names so forum members will continue to recognize me.

It certainly wasn’t my intent to offend anyone. A member’s user name wasn’t on my mind when simply agreeing with a comment from a previous post.

There’s not a rational reason for my dislike of the term. I collected pocket knives for over 40, maybe 45 years before ever hearing the term “slip joint”. I still don’t use the term myself, at least not often, if ever (not gonna say I’ve never used it - “never” is an absolute). “Friction folder” is another term I see occasionally but also don’t use myself. “Folder”, “traditional folder” or simply “pocket knife” are the terms I have most frequently used, and still use.

Having spent 40+ years working in engineering I’m very familiar with “slip joints”, typically related to pipe or metal fitting, but not in the context of cutlery. I don’t recall ever seeing “slip joint” (or “slippies”) in cutlery catalogs or Levine’s . As with the “half” and other terms that are the subject of this thread, I’m from the old school. I know what is meant when I see them, doesn’t mean I embrace them, but I don’t obsess over it. If that makes me an “old fogey”, I’ll just have to wear it. The world vocabulary goes on!

Ken

[bighomer]

I love old catalogs.

[Modern Slip Joints]

Bighomer,

It was fun reading the old catalogs. I noticed the manufacturer or reseller of the four whittlers named them Carpenter's Knives and the two stockmans a Cattle Knife and a Wharncliffe. The latter makes no sense to me.

Dinadan made the best point about the description or name slip joint.

Is there another word or phrase for a slip joint knife? If there is a synonym I would like to learn about it.

As he wrote there was a time when it was presumed folders had no lock if they were not described as having one but undoubtly the majority of knives sold now have blade locks. That has probably been the case for a few decades so a name to distinguish lockless folders is needed more than it once was.

By the way, AAPK administraror BestGear posted this morning "This is Charlie’s favorite traditional slip-joint pattern" so while the name is not loved by all at least it is not prohibed here.

[bighomer]

I don't think I ever heard the term slip- joint till I bought a few knives from a ebay seller "I'm going from memory now" up in Oregon. I believe he put the term in descriptions of knives he had for sale versus locking type knives. I use the term myself now and then, but if I've ever used the word half describing a knife I don't remember if.
May have call some ideas the government puts out as half ass.

[Dinadan]

It was fun reading the old catalogs. I noticed the manufacturer or reseller of the four whittlers named them Carpenter's Knives and the two stockmans a Cattle Knife and a Wharncliffe. The latter makes no sense to me.

MSL - A century ago the term Wharncliffe, however you want to spell it, could refer to the shape of the knife body rather than a blade. Here is a photo of a 1921 catalog entry that makes it clear that it was the knife, not the blades, that was called a Wharncliffe.

old catalog

Worncliffe_1921.jpg (61.08 KiB) Viewed 811 times

I still use the term Wharncliffe to refer to a knife with a body of that shape. In that respect I guess I am similar to the OP Wayne, trying to stand against the ebb and flow of history and language.

[1967redrider]

I would call that frame a Serpentine.

[Modern Slip Joints]

So, in the past a sleeve board frame with a serpintine curve was a Whorncliffe frame? I wonder what Mr. Wharncliffe would have said about that.

[Dinadan]

Here is a page from an old catalog that illustrates patterns of handles. It is not too easy to read. Note the bottom row in the left column. In the left corner what I would call a Serpentine is labeled as a Vaquero. In the right bottom is the Wharncliffe. In the middle of the right hand column, notice the knife on the right. I would call it a Dogleg, but it is labeled a Serpentine Jack.

Some of the patterns have stayed the same, the Barlow, the Congress, the Balloon, and the Equal End. Others not so much. Unfortunately, I do not have a date for this catalog.

Wayne - you can see that not a single pattern is labeled as a Half of anything.

[edgy46]

Here is a page from an old catalog that illustrates patterns of handles. It is not too easy to read. Note the bottom row in the left column. In the left corner what I would call a Serpentine is labeled as a Vaquero. In the right bottom is the Wharncliffe. In the middle of the right hand column, notice the knife on the right. I would call it a Dogleg, but it is labeled a Serpentine Jack.

Some of the patterns have stayed the same, the Barlow, the Congress, the Balloon, and the Equal End. Others not so much. Unfortunately, I do not have a date for this catalog.

Wayne - you can see that not a single pattern is labeled as a Half of anything.

Thank you for the picture, it will go in my files.
I agree there are no half knives.

[Thomasg]

I love old catalogs.

I guess being so well used I got one of those half congress !

[bighomer]

Well it's at least half wore out.

[btrwtr]

It was fun reading the old catalogs. I noticed the manufacturer or reseller of the four whittlers named them Carpenter's Knives and the two stockmans a Cattle Knife and a Wharncliffe. The latter makes no sense to me.

MSL - A century ago the term Wharncliffe, however you want to spell it, could refer to the shape of the knife body rather than a blade. Here is a photo of a 1921 catalog entry that makes it clear that it was the knife, not the blades, that was called a Wharncliffe.
Worncliffe_1921.jpg
I still use the term Wharncliffe to refer to a knife with a body of that shape. In that respect I guess I am similar to the OP Wayne, trying to stand against the ebb and flow of history and language.

I would agree the pattern determines the designation Wharncliffe. I also believe that the straight edged tapered back blades similar to sheepfoots can be called Wharncliffe blades regardless of the frame pattern the blade is in. Knife making companies often gave some very specific names to the knives they made. These specific names didn't carry over to other companies that made very similar knives and I don't think they were intended to. Back in pre-WWII days I doubt any manufacturers were marketing half knives.

I started this thread because I have always cringed a bit at the half knife definition. I believe that half-whittler name may have been used to bolster the market for the 6208 pattern Case knife sales some years back. Perhaps some marketing exec decided a half whittler would sell better than a swell center pen knife but I doubt the intent was for that designation to carry over to any similar knife from any manufacturer. A knife maker or manufacturer can give any name they want to the knife and I'm okay with that. A search now on eBay will yield 137 half whittlers, 108 half congress and 29 half stockman knives though everyone of them looks to be a complete knife to me.

Here is an early and unusual little Canastota Knife Co. N.Y. knife, 2 1/4" closed. Even given the knife's deminutive size I wouldn't to assign any fractional value to its description, it is a whole knife. I would call this a sway-back 3 blade, counting the button hook as a blade, shadow congress with a Wharncliffe master blade. It is not a whittler. For me it is often not easy to pigeonhole a knife into a definite pattern designation, and the lines can get blurred and opinions are often varied. To each his own and call them whatever you prefer. Some really great input in this thread.