Western states folding hunter

[Thomasg]

E-Bay offering .If you are bidding on this knife I would have pause un till our western states experts answers some of the questions that I have posted on the western forum .

[tongueriver]

What don't you like about this knife, Thomas?

[Mumbleypeg]

Good question - we need to know why you think it’s counterfeit. But I think it was posted here in the counterfeits forum after getting feedback from his prior post in the Western Collector’s forum. https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kn ... hp?t=84009

Ken

[btrwtr]

Most all of the Western Boulder and Western State folding hunters I have seen in bone have been 2 blades and Rogers bone. The jigging and color of this bone looks wrong to me for a Western States FH. Combine that with the fact that Western FHs in celluloid would have 2 handle pins at in each end and bone normally one pin in each end is also a bad sign. I think it is very likely that this knife was originally a celluloid gone bad rehandled in bone.

[Thomasg]

What don't you like about this knife, Thomas?

I can not find one single bladed hunter knife scaled with bone or stag in any of my catalog pages .All are scaled with non breakable composite . The bone looks unlikely any jigging pattern and color I have seen on any western states , western knife .The shield looks brand new compared to the condition of the knife blade. . The frame and blade are definitely western states so I do not believe the knife is an early contract knife made by another company.The E - Bay seller “ sports cob ‘ dusty duck has a questionable resume .

[Thomasg]

Most all of the Western Boulder and Western State folding hunters I have seen in bone have been 2 blades and Rogers bone. The jigging and color of this bone looks wrong to me for a Western States FH. Combine that with the fact that Western FHs in celluloid would have 2 handle pins at in each end and bone normally one pin in each end is also a bad sign. I think it is very likely that this knife was originally a celluloid gone bad rehandled in bone.

Thank you for your reply.Thats a great observation on the number and position of the handle pins . Over all the O. P.knife looks pretty good with the “new bone installed “I don’t think that at the bid price now at 227.29 and it may sell higher is a price worthy of paying .I can send any one of my western state composite knife off to be be re handled in bone for half as much $ or less If the knife was a factory original. that I had not been yet aware of existing the bidding price would be less of a concern .

[Gunsil]

I don't know why you seem so sure it wasn't made for WS by another company. I have seen several WS bone folding hunters made for them by KA-BAR, even one in bone with a dog head shield and one blade. KA-BAR was also the most prolific user of dentate (match striker) pulls which shown knife has. WS was only a jobber when started and had knives made for them by other companies up to about 1930. I have WS marked fixed blade hunting knives made by KA-BAR, Case/Kinfolks, and Marbles and a pre-WS patent KA-BAR fixed blade hunter with a bifurcated tang which is where I believe WS got the idea for their bifurcated tang fixed blade knives. Remember, the Brown Bros who ran KA-BAR were first cousins to Harlow Platts. Again, your catalogs don't go back far enough if they don't show a one blade bone handled FH.

[Mumbleypeg]

The Brown brothers, Wallace and Emerson, were grandsons of Job Case. Their mother Emma a daughter of Job and Deborah Case, who married John Brown. Their uncles include William Russell (W.R.) Case, John Case, Jean Case, Andrew Case, (Emma’s brothers) and J.B.F. Champlin, (founder of Cattaraugus and husband of Emma’s sister Mary Theresa Case). The connection to the Platts family comes through W.R. Case’s daughter Debbie’s marriage to H.N. Platts, who joined his brother-in-law Russ Case as a partner in W.R. Case & Son. At which time the name was changed to W.R. Case & Sons (plural).

The Crandalls’ subsequently became part of the family through marriage of another of W.R.’s daughters (another Mary Theresa - named for her aunt) to Herbert Crandall who founded Little Valley Knife Co., subsequently Crandall Cutlery, before selling it to, and joining, his brother-in-law Russ Case as a partner in W.R. Case & Sons.

The Brown brothers started Brown Brothers in Tidioute, PA. They then bought out Tidioute Cutlery, started Union Razor Co., which evolved into Union Cutlery Co., which then became Kabar Cutlery.

Complicated. I hope I got all that right! Levine’s Guide to Knives has a full two-page spread on the Case-related American cutlery brands, either through direct descendants and/or marriage. Amazingly, the family patriarch Job Case never made a knife.

Ken

[Gunsil]

Very good, Ken. The only thing I would disagree with is the Tidioute business. Union Razor was begun in Little Valley, NY, not Tidioute, PA. Their first factory was in Tidioute, but the company started in Little Valley.

[zzyzzogeton]

The 1925 Western catalog lists over 50 models with stag handles and 5 with bone stag handles.

Western started making their own folding knives in 1919 and their own fixed blades in 1928.

All folding knives marked WESTERN STATES before 1919 were made by someone else, primarily Case as that is how Case was paying Platts when they bought his (Platts') stake in Case before he (Platts) moved west.

After 1919, Case still made a lot of knives for Western (and other companies), but Western took over making many models. Many models were still made for Western by Case because it was cheaper to have them made by Case as it had the tooling for certain models already set up. The only difference was changing which stamp was used during the stamping process.

After Case finished paying off their debt to Platts for his (Platts') shares of Case, Western started using other companies to supply knives they couldn't or didn't want to make, in addition to Case.

[zzyzzogeton]

And looking at the OP knife, it looks like it is a rehandled A127 / 2127 (A = amber celluloid/2 = pearl celluloid) from 1931-1935 timeframe.

The model/pattern 127 (1 clip blade hunter) did not make it in the 1936 or 1941 catalogs.

[Thomasg]

I don't know why you seem so sure it wasn't made for WS by another company. I have seen several WS bone folding hunters made for them by KA-BAR, even one in bone with a dog head shield and one blade. KA-BAR was also the most prolific user of dentate (match striker) pulls which shown knife has. WS was only a jobber when started and had knives made for them by other companies up to about 1930. I have WS marked fixed blade hunting knives made by KA-BAR, Case/Kinfolks, and Marbles and a pre-WS patent KA-BAR fixed blade hunter with a bifurcated tang which is where I believe WS got the idea for their bifurcated tang fixed blade knives. Remember, the Brown Bros who ran KA-BAR were first cousins to Harlow Platts. Again, your catalogs don't go back far enough if they don't show a one blade bone handled FH.

I did consider union k bar single bladed knifes from these company’s I did find one close match to the frame style of the O.P .knife .The # 1406. , but the pin alignment and bolster were not a match .Also a lot of the early union K -Bar folding hunters I could find had pined front and back bolsters ?

[Thomasg]

And looking at the OP knife, it looks like it is a rehandled A127 / 2127 (A = amber celluloid/2 = pearl celluloid) from 1931-1935 timeframe.

The model/pattern 127 (1 clip blade hunter) did not make it in the 1936 or 1941 catalogs.

Thank you for your follow up posting .Although I still look for western states , western boulder folding knifes I have shifted my interest more toward early fixed blade knifes and strait razors .especially the early west - cut line before the k series.

[Gunsil]

The model 1406 is a newer knife from after 1968 and comparing it to an old KA-BAR/Union Cut is like comparing apples to oranges. No knives made by Union Cut had model numbers on the blade, that began under Cole National's ownership and began about 1969. Have fun with the fixed blades, I have collected those for over sixty years. I think it's a lot harder to find an old hunting knife in mint condition than a folding knife in mint condition.

[Thomasg]

The model 1406 is a newer knife from after 1968 and comparing it to an old KA-BAR/Union Cut is like comparing apples to oranges. No knives made by Union Cut had model numbers on the blade, that began under Cole National's ownership and began about 1969. Have fun with the fixed blades, I have collected those for over sixty years. I think it's a lot harder to find an old hunting knife in mint condition than a folding knife in mint condition.

Thank you for your reply . Can you tell what the purpose for the cut out on the 1406 front bolster was used for . Did the 1406 have a liner lock ? I think I may have only 1 early western states hunter knife that may have been made by contract . It looks to have been re handled . Can you identify the possible maker from the build and lock nut on the pommel ?

[zzyzzogeton]

Assuming the blade length is around 4-3/4" long, the base pattern would be a 43.

Definitely rehandled as Western never produced anything so crude. The model would be dependent on when it was made.

If from the 1928 to 1930 era, it most likely was an L43.

If it came from the 1931 to 1935 era, it could have started out as an A43 (assorted colors celluloid), L43 (leather), 543 (buck horn), 643 (bone stag), 243 (celluloid pearl), 743 (celluloid stag), based on the retained spacers. If it had been an FL43, they probably would have used more of the original spacers since that handle was composed of entirely of spacers - red and black fiber and metal.

If from the 1936-1940 era, the source model was an L43.

The 1941 43s had bird head pommels.

The maker would have been Kabar or Marbles and most likely came from the 1928 to 1930 era based on the stamp.

[FRJ]

What a list of great list information we have here.
Ya gotta love this place!

[btrwtr]

Thank you for your reply . Can you tell what the purpose for the cut out on the 1406 front bolster was used for . Did the 1406 have a liner lock ?

Yes, it is a liner lock knife. The bolster cutout is for pressing the liner lock back to fold the knife closed.

[Thomasg]

What a list of great list information we have here.
Ya gotta love this place!

Yes sir .whether just browsing knife history and looking at the knifes shared in postings , or looking information the folks that take the time to reply to posted questions are truly golden and appreciated !

[Pepeq]

The model 1406 is a newer knife from after 1968 and comparing it to an old KA-BAR/Union Cut is like comparing apples to oranges. No knives made by Union Cut had model numbers on the blade, that began under Cole National's ownership and began about 1969. Have fun with the fixed blades, I have collected those for over sixty years. I think it's a lot harder to find an old hunting knife in mint condition than a folding knife in mint condition.

You're right, comparing those knives is like comparing apples to oranges. Finding an old fixed-blade knife in perfect condition is definitely rarer than a folding knife in mint shape. Collecting them for over sixty years must give you a great perspective

[Gunsil]

Your stag re-handled knife is a KA-BAR model 72 made for WS. It is not shown in my 1925 WS catalog so it is likely late 1920s. The pommel and spacers are not the same as the 1923-24 KA-BAR 72s, they are later.

[Thomasg]

Your stag re-handled knife is a KA-BAR model 72 made for WS. It is not shown in my 1925 WS catalog so it is likely late 1920s. The pommel and spacers are not the same as the 1923-24 KA-BAR 72s, they are later.

Thank you for taking the time to research and answer my question .I bought the knife to have an example of the the tang stamping to add to my collection .It is nice to have a date maker and model number to satisfy my curiosity .Now I have a great starting point to see what the original handle may have been made out of and what the knife may have looked like in its original condition before being re handled .Even better would be to find an early # 72 model KA - Bar to add to my collection .

[Gunsil]

KA-BAR model 72s are pretty common although near mint-mint ones are harder to find. A stag handled one would be a 272 which would have split stag scales held on with two pins or rarely four pins, a wood handled one would be a 372, a fiber washer handled one would be a 472, and a leather ring handle one would be a 572. They also came with celluloid handles and a smooth bone handled 872. They came in 4&1/2" blades or 5&1/2" blade which do look a little different. Just remembered, the thistle handle one was 172. KA-BAR also made a model 71 for WS which has a straight blade rather than the curved blade of the 72. Some of the earlier KA-BAR hunting knives had the model number stamped into the front of the guard. I didn't have to do any research but thanks for the thanks, all this info is in my memory. I also have a stag handle stag pommel KA-BAR Little Hunter marked WS which is the only one I have seen but there must be more out there.