Remington buyer’s beware!

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

This knife is for sale on EBay for quite a bit of money! Good looking knife, however it is hard to justify buying due to the incorrect pattern number on back of main tang. Reads… R4633?? That is a pattern number for a Remington Stockman, see photo above. The correct pattern should be, R3853 see photos below. Hmmmmmmmm! Am I wrong on this????
Rocky

[ea42]

That's like the third or fourth one I've seen with that mis-stamp. I'm beginning to think that Remington let a bunch of those go through with the wrong stamp. The blade shape on all of them (including this one) matches up with the correct farmer's jack blades, although worn down of course. The swedge also matches up. Definitely doesn't match up with the blade from an actual 4633. That blade would be a lot thinner with the nail mark further forward. Regardless the price is outlandish for one with so much wear.

Eric

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Eric, if one reads his description, the main blade has issues indicating the knife may have been disassembled and reassembled. None the less… Remington would have never let this go out of the factory with intent based on their history of quality, craftsmanship and lifetime guarantee, just to name a few reasons.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Sent an email to him to notify him of what he already knew , and his 1st response was,” ok, thanks!” His second response was an offer for me to purchase to buy it for 5% off, then 3rd response was an offer to buy it now at $505.00 dollars. just declined and said nothing. To my knowledge he has lowered the price to $545.00 as a buy it now offer and changed his description about the tang pattern number as a possible discrepancy. Fair enough!
Rocky

[bestgear]

IAm I wrong on this?

good to see your posts Rocky!

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Thanks Tom!

[ea42]

Eric, if one reads his description, the main blade has issues indicating the knife may have been disassembled and reassembled. None the less… Remington would have never let this go out of the factory with intent based on their history of quality, craftsmanship and lifetime guarantee, just to name a few reasons.

Rocky I totally agree, it would sure seem odd. Just kind of strange that there are several out there, all quite well used. Here are pics of two others with the same stamp. Both have well worn hawks and one has a modified spey but neither looks to have been monkeyed with. I don't think any company is completely infallible and mistakes do happen, but I'm also not going to rule out some foul play in the past. Just putting it out there.

Eric

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Eric, I am a Remington purist. In Remington’s heyday their quality, craftsmanship and product guarantee was without question and impeccable. It is possible that in the mid to late 1930’s as the company’s cutlery division was coming to a close, the economic toll of the Great Depression and the planned sell off to PALS Cutlery, things may have become more lax.
As a side note, my personal concern is if Remington collectors begin to make those allowances and foster those beliefs as collectors, it leaves an open door to those who take advantage for profit sake and hurts the young or new enthusiast as well the collector’s market. JMHO
Rocky

[ea42]

Rocky I couldn't agree more. Heck nowadays some folks actually seem to be OK with welding "new" blades onto old tangs. It boggles my mind. Years ago anyone found doing that would have been run out of town by collectors. It's pretty sad.

Eric

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Not sure if Lyle AKA-WLF is still posting but he is the expert on Farmer Jacks. He might be able to share a thought or two on this knife.

[Good Old Luke]

Rocky I couldn't agree more. Heck nowadays some folks actually seem to be OK with welding "new" blades onto old tangs. It boggles my mind. Years ago anyone found doing that would have been run out of town by collectors. It's pretty sad.

Eric

People caught welding blades onto tangs, AND NOT CLEARLY DESCRIBING SUCH “repairs,” should STILL be run out of the knife show—on a rail.
I’m pretty new here, but in going through these forums, these counterfeits remind me of all the problems we have in the vintage guitar market. Another instance of standards being lowered, gradually, over time, until it’s almost impossible, even for experts, to identify original, unmolested instruments…
Example… an honest and impeccable dealer friend of mine has told me that if you added up all of the “pre-CBS” Fender Strats and Teles being offered for sale, today on the web, the totals would exceed the actual production numbers reported in Fender docs… ?!
And I, myself, have seen ALL number of shenanigans in the market. From Chinese “Custom Shop” clones that are copied so closely that even a long time expert would have trouble identifying one. To sloppy, reassemblies of a mish mash of older parts from different guitars…
I’ve seen entire guitars, assembled around one original neck—claiming to be original…
It’s to the point that some dealers have stopped selling them, cause they can’t be sure, what they are selling—and these are experts…
So yeah, get those rails out, and keep the standards high, or the art of collecting history will be lost to the knife world…

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Hear, Hear!! I couldn’t agree more and have always bolstered this same sentiment. Appreciate your experience and your knowledge my friend and to the AAPK Remington forum!! I would like to call you by your first name if you permit me to do so or I’ll call you ol’ Luke.

[Good Old Luke]

Hear, Hear!! I couldn’t agree more and have always bolstered this same sentiment. Appreciate your experience and your knowledge my friend and to the AAPK Remington forum!! I would like to call you by your first name if you permit me to do so or I’ll call you ol’ Luke.

Thanks for the warm welcome!
“Luke” is good. Or “GOL,” I keep a low profile on public forums, for a variety of reasons. So a “nom de plume” works here. (Nothing shady going on, just protecting my online indentity. Been a victim of identity theft—so I’m quite cautious.)

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

I completely understand Luke. I look forward to our interactions on the forum and thank you for sharing!
Rocky

[ea42]

Rocky I think the knife in the image with the photobucket identifier plastered all over it belongs, or belonged to Lyle. If I recall correctly he had the same questions about the model number as he had at the time found another (although that one seemed to have been re-handled). I think he had posted it up on Bladeforums but I'm not positive there as it's been a while.

Eric

[wlf]

Hello fellas.

I love this conversation and the expert opinions given.There's a definite reason (whatever) why so many of these appear with the same wrong number and a variety of handles and secondary blades.

The exact reason , one can only guess. I thought Pal may have assembled these , post Remington buyout, although the mystery number stamp defies reason. I offered this notion because the handle material on the first example I have below is indicative of bone used by Pal.

The etches , frames . and handle materials all look legitimate to me, but the blades are not typical to the frame and pattern.I believe the parts are from Remington , why and how is a mystery. A more authoritative Remington collector may disagree.

The collective identical wrong number stamp does not seem like a forger's MO . I believe these blades were manufactured legitimately.
I had seen three of these prior to this conversation. One didn't function properly. I bought the two that worked excellently , knowing full well the mystery.

I added the other one with the standard looking Remington bone and also stamping comparison from a correct knife.

[wlf]

More pics of the R4633s.

The last picture is of the one that I didn't buy. This was at least 10-15 years ago .

[wlf]

Eric, if one reads his description, the main blade has issues indicating the knife may have been disassembled and reassembled. None the less… Remington would have never let this go out of the factory with intent based on their history of quality, craftsmanship and lifetime guarantee, just to name a few reasons.

Rocky I totally agree, it would sure seem odd. Just kind of strange that there are several out there, all quite well used. Here are pics of two others with the same stamp. Both have well worn hawks and one has a modified spey but neither looks to have been monkeyed with. I don't think any company is completely infallible and mistakes do happen, but I'm also not going to rule out some foul play in the past. Just putting it out there.


Remington R4633.jpg

RemingtonwrongR4633-2.jpg

Eric
[/quot




I believe they might have been large sheepfoot blades to begin with , Eric ? Thanks for finding another I had not seen.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Lyle, as usual, I appreciate your commentary and sharing the pictures of the Wharncliffe or Farmers Jacks, you have a wonderful collection . Going back to my original post, the knife in question has what appears to be a hawk blade or pruner blade that is well worn. The pattern number on the main blade is R4633 which is a completely different pattern and a vastly different blade, the Remington Warncliffe pattern number is R3853 as per their Jobber’s catalog and reorder… also this seller is offering a Fish knife pattern stamped on the main tang reading R643 but that also is the wrong pattern number for the knife as it has pyremite handles and should be R655 the 5 indicating pyremite. the R643 pattern had stag handles as per the 3 and was guard-less according to the Remington C-5 catalog. Not trying to but Remington did not conduct their business and become the leader in the cutlery era of that day by lackadaisical production They were very meticulous during the production process and overseeing quality. They gave a lifetime guarantee on their products… JMHO. Again my concern is the high dollar value attached, the legitimacy of the knife for the unsuspecting novice, as well, maintaining the purity and confidence in collecting Remington cutlery memorabilia, it is rare that I buy anything now and really none in the last several years in part related to the questionable issues with “a lot” of antique Remington knives on the market . I guess I’ve pontificated more than my allotted share… sorry about that, even so it’s been a great discussion!
Rocky

[Good Old Luke]

I completely understand Luke. I look forward to our interactions on the forum and thank you for sharing!
Rocky

Rocky,
Thanks for the slack! You don’t want to know the trouble you can have when someone steals your identity—getting it resolved is a major hassle.
Also looking forward to tapping your knowledge on this site. Thanks for the welcome!

[ea42]

I believe they might have been large sheepfoot blades to begin with , Eric ? Thanks for finding another I had not seen.

Lyle it's funny you mention that, after seeing the pics of all the mismarked examples I was coming to the same conclusion. Not one of them shows any trace of the hawkbill. You'd think at least one of them would.

Eric

[wlf]

I believe the frames are correct.
I believe the all the blades look like authentic stamping , excepting the numbers.
All except the light bone look like authentic Remington bone to me. I have 3 other actual R3853s for comparison.

I definitely agree these are not legitimate Remington farmers jacks. They are what they are. They have some modified blades , but they look like authentic stamps. The numbers are an enigma.

Opinions welcome because I'm no Remington expert. That's a minimum of at least 5 different examples with the R4633 number. They are a thang.

[AREMINGTONSEDGE]

Thank you again Lyle, your opinion is greatly valued, I don’t know anyone else that has a Farmer Jack collection that even gets close to yours!


Luke, unfortunately I have some experience with your dilemma, so I completely understand. I am out on short term disability currently and have some extra time in my surgical rehab/therapy that is allowing me more time on AAPK. I am trying to be as active as I once was, but this only leads me to feeding the collection monster within…LOLOL None the less it’s a great site, and forum with amazing members. How could anyone not enjoy the knowledge base and camaraderie!
Rocky

[Good Old Luke]

Thank you again Lyle, your opinion is greatly valued, I don’t know anyone else that has a Farmer Jack collection that even gets close to yours!


Luke, unfortunately I have some experience with your dilemma, so I completely understand. I am out on short term disability currently and have some extra time in my surgical rehab/therapy that is allowing me more time on AAPK. I am trying to be as active as I once was, but this only leads me to feeding the collection monster within…LOLOL None the less it’s a great site, and forum with amazing members. How could anyone not enjoy the knowledge base and camaraderie!
Rocky

Rocky,
Thanks for the reply. I also, am dealing with a life changing, medical issue. Coping well, progressing through treatments well, and also spending a lot of time indulging my knife interests…
I buy and flip for extra cash, and to get my hands on a wide variety of blades.
To experience them, learn about them, the history, etc.
Thanks for the welcome here. Look forward to the good knife fellowship!