Relics of beauty!

[ea42]

Here's an old Camillus that belonged to my grandfather. Found it in the bottom of one of his toolboxes a few years after he passed away. Never even knew he had it, but he sure must have used it!! It's my most cherished relic, I actually took this photo moments after I'd found it:

Eric

[Miller Bro's]

Eric,

Nice family heirloom.

Here is an unusual old Robeson. I am not a fan of small pen knives, or knives with manicure blades, but this is one of the nicest pattern pen knives I have seen in a while. Not to mention the jigged bone is very attractive.

Check out the unusual shield too.

[Sauconian]

Nice Robeson M.B.

Here's another one. I think of it as a Mr.Peanut knife because of the shape. It used to belong to Sunburst. It's in pretty good shape to be called a relic though, and so is the Union Cutlery Co. to the left.

I'll dig down to the bottom of the old cigar box, and see what else is in there.

Fran

[Sauconian]

Here's an old train wreck from the bottom of the box ! It doesn't give me as much trouble though, as some of the ladies I've dragged home that I called the same. Less expensive too.

3-1/4" Northfield Knife Co. The nick on the pen blade is a bugger to get a grip on.

When 'ya need a fix 'ya gotta buy a knife, even if it is a relic.

Fran

[Miller Bro's]

Fran,

Nice Union and Robeson! Too good for this thread, but glad to see them.

It must be Robeson week, seem to be running across lots of them.

Here are a couple unusual ones. Maybe Charlie Noyes can chime in on them?

The first is a pearl handle one, unusual curved shape, it`s a whittler. Pattern number 732365.

Second one is a "Mastercraft", no pattern number visable, the pen blade is stamped "Pat. App., I have never seen this tang stamp before. Both blades have the bronze bearing on the tang, this is what the pattern is for.

M.B.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Nice Robesons, Fran & MB. I've yet to own a nice bone handled candle-end lobster!

MB, your 732365 pearl handled sway-back whittler was introduced by Robeson just in time for Christmas, 1910, and was featured, along with fourteen other new knives, in a full page, inside front cover ad of The Saturday Evening Post, December 3rd, 1910 issue.

My example is below, cleaned BEFORE I bought it off Ebay.

Also below is my representative Robeson relic. I always put this knife on my display table right in the center section, in front of where I sit. You'd be surprised how many people want to talk about this knife.

Also, also below is a Robeson card sent to one J. E. Harvey of Mumford, N.Y., regarding a repaired knife. On the left side of the card is an advertisement introducing them to, A New Sales Invigorator, "MasterCraft" knives. Note the date, 5/7, 1929.

Expand the photo to read the card.

I've just shared one of my secrets with you guys, the start date of MasterCraft knives. I'm trying to make up for taking the varnish off that Robeson scout!

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,


Very interesting!

Thanks for sharing that information about the start date of the Mastercraft knives.

I wonder what kind of repair was needed on that knife in 1929?

Also, Is your Mastercraft knife stamped with the "Pat. App" tang stamp?

Nice shield on that relic, I have one like that too, Robeson sure did have some unusual and attractive shields!

[RobesonsRme.com]

I have several old Robeson MasterCraft knives. I do not know if one has the "PAT APP" tang stamp. I'd have to look. Obviously, that stamp on a MasterCraft knife would date it pre-1929, as it does on yours.

I know I have other knives with that tang stamp, but Robeson used it on more than one style of knife while a patent was pending. One other example of that is the knives with the nickel-silver liners and/or bolsters that wrap over the edges of the handles. The handles are secured, not by pins, but by the overlapping liners and/or bolsters.

Bernie Levine discussed these knives extensively over three or four WHUT-IZZIT? columns in KnifeWorld several months ago.

I'll post a photo of such a knife below, but it ain't no relic. Notice, no handle pins.

Also, here is a tang stamp of a small three inch pen knife with the wrap over liners. This knife has no bolsters, so the handles are also secured by the blade pins. This stamp, however, has the actual patent date for this innovation, 6 -13 -16.

Also, I think I have the "PAT APP" stamp on a stainless steel bladed "NO-RUSTAIN" knife.

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,


I have one of those interframe patented knives, somewhere in my pile of relics.

Here is another interesting Robeson, maybe you can tell me more about it.

It is a model #32238 1/2, has the arrow shield, blk. comp. handles.

What is interesting to me is the spun design in the bolsters. It looks like the pin, but you can see from the closeup it is not.

The funny thing is I have a Cattaraugus interframe with this very same design in the bolsters.

I will post a picture of it for comparison purposes.

M.B.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Look at the Arrow. Look at the BullsEye on the bolster.
Get it?

Actually, I must attribute that to Bruce Voyles. He suggested that in the ABCA Guide To Antique Knives, 1989.

BTW; the pattern number on your knife is actually 322038 1/2. The 1/2 denotes a spear blade, as opposed to a clip.

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

I really don`t know about the bull`s eye theory. Bruce may be guessing about that one. I have seen other knives without the arrow shield with the same bolster design.

I have pictures below of one such knife made by Cattaraugus. It is an interframe design with very similar bolsters like the ones on the Robesons. It has an oval shield.

I know I have another Robeson somewhere that has these bolsters without an arrow shield.

Also, check out the tang stamp on the 38 1/2, the "0" is missing.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Notice my Robeson relic above. It has the arrow shield. It has plain bolsters. I attributed the arrow/bullseye theory to Bruce for two reasons. One; he said it first. Give credit where credit is due. Second; I knew it wasn't consistent with all arrow shielded Robeson knives, so I don't claim it as historical fact.

In support of Bruces's theory is the fact that a lot of these knives have red paint in the engraved circle, making it look more like a target. He was looking at two or three mint knives from a large collection when he wrote that. Each had the red paint.

If you like Robesons at all, you need a copy of The ABCA Guide To Antique Knives, 1989. There are over four hundred Robeson knives illustrated by B/W photographs. He made some errors, but the knives are worth the book.

All Robeson pocketknives that are marked with a pattern number have a SIX digit number, unless they are a 1950's German import, in which case they have a four digit number, or they have a suffix added, such as 1/2, 100, 125, or 250. I've seen all those suffixes, and do not know what all of them mean.

Robeson's six digit pattern numbers should be thought of as two groups of three digits each.

The first group describes the knife's construction: first digit, handle material; second digit, number of blades; third digit, liner-bolster material.

The second group is the number for a particular handle-die shape. Those start with 001, and go up into the 900's. Handle-die shapes numbered 001 - 099 will quite often be found with the third from the last digit omitted, as in 01 - 99. They did this to make space on smaller blade tangs, but I've seen it on larger knives as well. I've seen examples of the same pattern knife where one has the zero, another does not.

If I picked your knife up at a knife show, and looked at the pattern number, I'd think to myself, "322, 038, and 1/2"

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

If you like Robesons at all, you need a copy of The ABCA Guide To Antique Knives, 1989. There are over four hundred Robeson knives illustrated by B/W photographs. He made some errors, but the knives are worth the book.

I don`t have a copy of that book, but will keep my eyes open for one.

All Robeson pocketknives that are marked with a pattern number have a SIX digit number, unless they are a 1950's German import, in which case they have a four digit number, or they have a suffix added, such as 1/2, 100, 125, or 250. I've seen all those suffixes, and do not know what all of them mean

Thanks Charlie, that clears up a lot of confusion with the numbering system.

M.B.

[Miller Bro's]

Here is a relic Robeson scout/utility knife with the large bail.










M.B.

[stockman]

Charlie, I don't have many Robeson knives but I have one it is not a 6 or 4 digit pattern
number but a 5 digit. I looked in my book and found many 5 digit pattern numbers.
This knife is 62137 bone 2 blade steel liners and bolsters. It is a large jack gnarly bone
equal end. So what is this is it American German ?? Nice old knife. page 345 of The IBCA
J. Bruce Voyles book shows one that is a 62237 same but brass liners nickle silver bolsters.
Any thoughts, anyway thanks.

Stockman

[RobesonsRme.com]

Please read my post above concerning Robeson pattern numbers.

Your knife's pattern number is actually 621037 (read as "621-037"). They just omitted that zero. Knives exist that are exactly like yours, but with the complete number.

The third digit in your knife's pattern number is "1". That indicates that it should have steel liners and bolsters, just as you stated.

Here's another example of the same pattern (at least it has the same three digit handle-die shape number 037). The third digit in this knife's pattern number is "2", indicating brass liners and nickel-silver bolsters. And, it has the zero in its pattern number.

Am I being too picky about those zeros, guys?

I know that Robeson knives exist with a five digit number. I own many. However, identical knives exist with the complete six digit number. Therefore, I think of all the pattern numbers as being six digits. It just makes my understanding of the knives simpler. When I see a five digit number, my mind just inserts that zero into the fourth position.

I'm sure that when Case collectors see a knife without a pattern number, but it's a familiar pattern of a known number, their mind simply supplies the number and applies it to that knife.

Charlie Noyes

[stockman]

Thanks Charlie, I had read you post several times before I posted. It did not seem clear until
I went back and read it after your last post. your post was clear just my poor reading skills. I got it now, thanks

Stockman

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

What do you make of this suffix?

[RobesonsRme.com]

"1/4"

I'm not sure I've seen it before. Might have and just don't remember.

I have seen "1/2" before, though, and I've seen identical knives with that suffix expressed as "1-2".

If you had a copy of Bruce's book, I could show you what the "1/2" or "1-2" suffix means.

The Robeson pages in my copy have come loose. (I wonder why?) Maybe I can scan some tomorrow and show you the 1/2 answer.

I'm sure that all the suffixes (?suffices ) indicate a variation on a standard pattern.

I've now seen 1/4, 1/2, 65, 75, 100, 125, 200, and 250.

Tom Kalcevic addresses some of them in Knives Can Talk, but not all. One of them, he states, indicates a bail on a knife that ordinarily doesn't have one.

Sarah's in bed and the lights are out, or I'd look that up.

Tomorrow.

Here's my 013. What's different about yours?

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

From what I can see, this knife has steel bolsters, the blade on this one has a swedge cut into it, and it has worm groove bone.

Other than that the knife looks the same. The shield is nickle silver and the liners are brass.

Unfortunately the pen blade is snapped off

I have posted a close up of the tang stamp, is your stamp the same?


D

[RobesonsRme.com]

MB;
My knife is marked, ROBESON / ShurEdge / ROCHESTER. According to Tom Kalcevic's published data, that makes your knife earlier than mine.

I think the difference in bone is a date related thing and not concerned with the added suffix.

I suspect, but do not know, that the same is true regarding the swedge.

I've perused Bruce Voyle's book, The American Blade Collector's Price Guide to Antique Knives, 1990 (that's a corrected date over my previous posts) closely.

He illustrated one knife with the "1-4" suffix. I compared the photo with a photo of my example of that pattern, 622029, a swell-end jack, and can discern no difference. So, as of now, I do not know what the "1-4" or "1/4" suffix meant.

I noticed some other suffixes, "65" and "75", so add those to the list.

Out of over four hundred knives, Bruce did not illustrate a single knife with the suffixes, "100", "125", "200" or "250".

I cannot state this categorically without studying my own knives, but I believe I've only seen those on four blade knives.

Also, in Bruce's book. I found the "1/2" or "1-2" suffix to mean one of two things. One, a spear blade instead of the usual clip for a pattern, and Two, a file blade instead of a pen as the secondary blade.

The "1/2" or "1-2" suffix was only on two blade penknives, based on the knives with that suffix illustrated in his book.

Also, no where in his narrative about Robeson did I see the theory about the arrow shielded knives and the bolster with the inscribed red circle. I know I heard that from Bruce, now I just don't know where or when.

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

All very interesting!

If we only had an old factory dealer catalog, it might answer a lot of questions





M.B.

[RobesonsRme.com]

I know of only one old Robeson catalog. Bruce owns it, or did. It has been offered to me for sale, but I thought $500.00 a bit much.

It is a loose leaf, leather bound book, but the front cover is about one quarter to half gone.

Besides, it is the very catalog from which Dewey and Lavonna Ferguson took the illustrations for the older knives in Romance of Collecting Russell, Robeson, Cattaraugus and Queen Pocketknives, 1976 (I think).

I'll have to get the book out and check to see if any knives are illustrated with a suffix in their pattern number.

So many questions, so few answers.

BTW; there was a copy of the Ferguson book on Ebay last week. I think the starting bid was $75.00.

Here's a copy of the Voyles book on Ebay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-KNIVES-BOOK ... 43002r8208

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

Also, in Bruce's book. I found the "1/2" or "1-2" suffix to mean one of two things. One, a spear blade instead of the usual clip for a pattern, and Two, a file blade instead of a pen as the secondary blade.

I think you may have it right there.

The 1 denotes a spear blade.

2 denotes a secondary file blade.

4 denotes a secondary pen blade.

The othe combinations can be figured out by examining the knives first hand and determining which blades are different.

The knife in question is marked 1.4, so spear master with a pen secondary.

Just guessing, but it may work

[upnorth]

Back from the Easton show, I am waiting for the knives I shipped home to arrive, but waiting for me was this unusual old Relic of Beauty!
You don't often see a gunstock from Empire, and you don't often see one as nice as this!! Well worn, but well loved, with "bug-bitten" horn handles, its former glory shows through;