Slip Joint Selection Question

[wildjim]

I am new to slip joint knives and have a few questions.

I've noticed that at wholesale price Case is competitive while Queen and Canal Street and Great Eastern are much more and or twice the price of Case.

Is Buck considered a quality slip joint manufacturer?

Considering value and materials and construction which is the best buy of the manufacturers described above?

Also I read about Rough Rider and some say its a wonderful knife but the price is a fraction of the manufacturers described above.

What is the opinion of Rough Rider in comparison of materials and construction without China verses USA political argument?

[ALLEN]

WILD JIM....to me it is ...what is your wallet size...case, buck,queen and etc. have great knives.....next do you want to collect or use it every day?....myself i carry case, buck,and old timers....a sharp knife is a tool for whatever use you need it for..i hope my post will help...also i have seen some good to very good rough riders...for a low budget..they are ok.....ALLEN

[tjmurphy]

I carry a Rough Rider lock back "French Tickler" (love that toothpick pattern) and it's held up very well for the two years I've carried it and it holds a good edge. Got it off the bay for about six bucks including shipping.

[Darksev]

First off, welcome to AAPK

Secondly, anything after this is entirely my opinion, so take that as you will. I tend to not be a "collector" so much as an "Admiring user". I have alot of knives now, and a select few get pocket time anymore, but I'm confident in every one of my knives as tools that will work hard if they have to. I have an extreme dislike for 420 series stainless steel. If you want a nice knife to look at in a display, then it's great. If you want something built to cut, hold an edge and sharpen like a dream, then you want carbon steel, or a significantly higher grade of stainless (i.e. VG10, CPM154, S30V)

When it comes to slipjoints, all things are not created equal. with regards to the brands you mentioned, Rough rider and many of the cheaper buck slipjoints are of chinese manufacture, which explains the low price point. If you browse around here enough, you won't find many positive comments regarding the former (RR) and a few disappointed comments about the later (Buck).

The reason RR knives gets such a bad rap is they really are not a quality tool (After all, what is a knife, but a tool). The steel is soft, the quality control questionable, and the marketing often tries to present it as something it is not.

Buck makes a wonderful knife. the 110 and it's counterparts are about as legendary as you get in the knife world. Most of the disappointment stems from the offshoring of the vast majority of the "lower end" lines of their cutlery. the high-end buck stuff (Alpha, 110, custom shop, etc) are all still made here, and are great tools. The act of moving manufacture overseas left only one game in town for a low price, American made slippie... Case. (man... does anyone else miss schrade )

Here's where I may get some negative karma points. I think Case, especially recently, is trading far to heavily on "American Made" to sell their knives, as opposed to quality and attention to detail. I have a few recently made (2005-current) Case knives, and while nice, they are a shadow of the Case knives of the 60's and even the 70's. Maybe that's progress for you, I'm not sure. Part of my dislike for most of Case's current production is my preference for carbon steels. The line of carbon knives case makes is rather limited.

Queen, Canal Street and Great Eastern are the folks who, if anyone, will save the American cutlery industry. The price of these knives is higher because they try not to skimp on quality and detail. The reaction from someone used to "cheap" cutlery the first time they get their hands on something like a Great Eastern knife is priceless this is how your knives are supposed to be made. While all three companies do use stainless steels in some of their knives, the bulk of their production is of a higher quality steel. Great Eastern's Northfield and Tidioute brands are exclusivly 1095 carbon steel (the "classic" cutlery steel). Queen uses a boatload of D2, a semi-stainless tool steel. Canal Street does use alot of lower end stainless, but they do have some gems like 14-4CroMo in their lineup.

All of these steels are not nearly as easy to work with as cheap stainless grades. It's harder on tools, and requires more precision and skill to heat treat and work with. Because people need to eat, the cost of such work is passed on to the consumer, aka you. The goal of these companies is not to make a pocket knife to compete with whatever crate of junk landed on the dock from asia last week, but to provide a quality tool to someone not able to pay or wait for a custom-made knife.


I'm sure some other folks will chime in too, but there you have it, my opinions on things. I will warn you however, if you do decide to pick up a knife from a company like Great Eastern or the like, I hope you don't mind being broke. I'm not sure of the last time I had a pocket full of spending money, I think it was a few years ago

[philco]

If you are looking to build value in a knife collection, remember that there is always a demand for quality no matter what the economy is doing.
Rough Ryder is a low end, cheap selling knife. There is very little prospects of them becoming a sought after collectable.
One possibility I did not see you mention is Schrade. Although production of Schrade knives in the USA ceased in 2004, there are still plenty circulating and available on ebay and other auction sites as well as from some of the sellers right here on AAPK. I'll be shocked if they don't continue to gain in value as time goes by. Stay away from the China made Schrades though, the just aren't the same in quality or collectability.
I have some of most of the brands that have been mentioned. I like them all, but right now at least, I'm quite enamoured with the Canal Street knives.
Any of the American made knives you mentioned would be a great path to consider for a collection.
Good luck and have fun with your new hobby.

Phil

[trail]

Bear & Son is another American maker of low price, decent quality slipjoint knives. My take is they are not quite up to Case as far as fit and finish, but they are improving. I like their knives a lot, and it doesn't hurt that they are 100% American made in a plant in Jacksonville, AL.

[Paladin]

Guys,
I am not a defender of the China made knife, but one of our members did some tests and Rough Rider fared pretty well. At the same time the member also tested some American made knives. Come to think of it, it may have been just Case, it was quite a while ago that all this took place.
If I am not mistaken, it may have been Hukk who did the testing. We had a nice report from him, or whomever it was that performed the test routine.
I am not sure exactly how to search this issue but maybe someone with a little more savy on the system can find it.

Ray

[tjmurphy]

I agree that the RR will never be a collector's piece, but for an everyday carry knife, it works very well. Though I would be a little disappointed if I lost it, I would be out nothing. And, as I said before, it takes a razor sharp edge and holds it. Don't know what the handles are, but probably Delrin and the bolsters are heavy, solid brass. And I like the toothpick pattern.



Try this link, if it works

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... er#p109207

[wildjim]

Guys,
I am not a defender of the China made knife, but one of our members did some tests and Rough Rider fared pretty well. At the same time the member also tested some American made knives. Come to think of it, it may have been just Case, it was quite a while ago that all this took place.
If I am not mistaken, it may have been Hukk who did the testing. We had a nice report from him, or whomever it was that performed the test routine.
I am not sure exactly how to search this issue but maybe someone with a little more savy on the system can find it.

Ray

I also found Boker Knives and they make the Tree Brand knives in Germany that I remember and also a Magnum line of knives made in China that seem a lot like Rough Rider knives.

I am old enough to remember when USA made slip joint knives were so superior that nothing else was considered. Now it seems Chinese made knives are acceptable and labor cost are so low that US and European manufacturers can't compete; although they reserve the best materials to homeland knives but that may change the way things are going. I do not believe its any other solution to be competitive as US and European cost of living demand high wages for workers and no one wants to lower their standard of living. I imagine that China will raise their standard of living and it may all balance some day?

I wonder what the actual source of Rough Rider knives is?

Anyway I am considering Queen, Case, Buck (USA) and Boker (Tree Brand) in that order.

Has Queen recently changed ownership to Ontario Knives? Are they made in the same small town in Pennsylvania as Great Eastern?

Please feel free to offer any suggestions as I am open minded and new to this.

[Aimus Moses]

[/quote]I also found Boker Knives and they make the Tree Brand knives in Germany.

I wonder what the actual source of Rough Rider knives is?

Anyway I am considering Queen, Case, Buck (USA) and Boker (Tree Brand) in that order.

Has Queen recently changed ownership to Ontario Knives? .[/quote]

There are also Boker Tree Brand USA marked knives you could consider. I've found those to be as good or better as the German marked Bokers. Moore Maker is another good quality made knife to consider, although they are made by Queen. There aren't very many USA knife companies that doesn't have Queen to make their knives for them come to think of it. Bear & Son makes there own as well as making contract knives for some other companies. I've found those Bear & Son Damascus knives & their Carbon series knives to be excellent knives with good work ready steel blades. Utica still makes their own knives I believe? They also make contract knives for other companies too don't they? As mentioned Buck still makes some of their knives here in the old Red, White, & Blue country, & of coarse Case is still made here at home.

My guess as to what the acual source of Rough Rider knives are is old tin beer cans from the 1960's & aluminum foil melted together as their blade steel and have you ever wondered what the Chineze do with the dog bones that are left after they make supper out of Fido? That's probably the bone handles on those Rider knives.

Ontario knives and Queen Cutlery are sister companies with the same owner, Shatt & Morgan is also part of Ontario/Queen Cutlery empire with the sme owner. Their quality of knives are hard to beat. GEC & Canal Street are the new kids on the block but they are a force to be reckoned with when it comes to quality F & F. The GEC 1095 steel that is used is absolutely top notch & takes a back seat to no one for ease of sharpening & holding that sharp edge after being worked hard. There's a lot to consider wildjim but remember the old saying you gwt what you pay for, well most of the time. I don't know if this has helped you or confused you more wildjim.

Well I gotta go get some rest, there's plenty to do tomorrow. Goodnight everyone & GOD BLESS you.
Aimus Moses.

[tjmurphy]

My guess as to what the acual source of Rough Rider knives are is old tin beer cans from the 1960's & aluminum foil melted together as their blade steel and have you ever wondered what the Chineze do with the dog bones that are left after they make supper out of Fido? That's probably the bone handles on those Rider knives

Greetings Aimus

Why would you say something like that? Have you ever owned one? I think if you did the research you'd find that most all products made with steel have more recycled material than virgin, but I doubt aluminum. I bought mine with out any research as to the quality and I am very happy with it, for a $6 knife. Like I said earlier, I hate to lose anything, especially a knife, but if I did I would be out nothing. I carried a Case knife for a long time, in fact the RR replaced it, and I could bring the edge to razor sharp and it would go dull in my pocket before I had a chance to use it. So far, everything I've read says that they are great knives for the price. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showt ... id/813199/ There is also another link from this forum that I posted earlier.

Anyway, maybe they're not an expensive USA made knife, but they're certainly not as bad as you make them out to be. Just my 2-cents.

[wildjim]

My guess as to what the acual source of Rough Rider knives are is old tin beer cans from the 1960's & aluminum foil melted together as their blade steel and have you ever wondered what the Chineze do with the dog bones that are left after they make supper out of Fido? That's probably the bone handles on those Rider knives

Greetings Aimus

Why would you say something like that? Have you ever owned one? I think if you did the research you'd find that most all products made with steel have more recycled material than virgin, but I doubt aluminum. I bought mine with out any research as to the quality and I am very happy with it, for a $6 knife. Like I said earlier, I hate to lose anything, especially a knife, but if I did I would be out nothing. I carried a Case knife for a long time, in fact the RR replaced it, and I could bring the edge to razor sharp and it would go dull in my pocket before I had a chance to use it. So far, everything I've read says that they are great knives for the price. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showt ... id/813199/ There is also another link from this forum that I posted earlier.

Anyway, maybe they're not an expensive USA made knife, but they're certainly not as bad as you make them out to be. Just my 2-cents.

Funny (too me) I am pretty sure that Aimus Moses was just making a joke; although when I was a kid and USA slip joint knives were king that statement may have been close to reality as China Made Knives then were not good at all (as I remember)

Anyway I am taking all this information in and I am not confused but I realize how much I do not know about slip joint knives. As I learn of new makers from all your posts I research that to take me further.

Please pour it on without regard for my confusion I'll sort it all out at some point ; ) Thank You All in advance. . .

[Darksev]

it may have been Hukk who did the testing.

I know Hukk uses them for customization practice. He had a few that he fileworked the blades on and noticed it was WAY to easy. RR uses the designation 440 Stainless, which is a bit of a ruse to begin with. there are a number of grades of 440 steel, some far better for knives than others. The consensus was RR uses 440A, which has 16-18% chromium (extreme corrosion resistance) and .6%~ carbon (affects hardness and edge retention). the maximum hardness for 440A is 59Rc, at which point the steel is brittle. The knives Hukk tested came in at 47Rc, which is about the hardness of a backspring, give or take. I've seen a few RR's with one of those little 58RC stickers on the blades. if your QC dept. can't tell the difference between 47 and 58, you shouldn't be making knives, it's a bit to precise an art for you.

Again, I'm picky. I don't own any of these knives, and I likely won't start anytime soon. It's not just because they are manufactured overseas. I have a number of knives in my collection that come from faraway lands. In my pocket right now is a CRKT stubby razel I've been carrying around for a few weeks because the new steel intrigued me (8Cr13MoV, if your interested). Back pocket is a Spyderco Urban I rebuilt in VG10 (probably my favorite stainless atm). Most of my knife use involves breaking down heavy cardboard shipping containers, plastic strapping, cutting shielded cables, etc so I'm rather hard on an edge. I want to be able to do that, then go back to the office and refit a replacement styrene gear that's just a hair to thick by shaving off a sliver. I have a few older stainless (420HC) schrades that I love to death, I just don't carry them at all as they can't do that.

[Aimus Moses]

Greetings Aimus

Why would you say something like that? Have you ever owned one? I think if you did the research you'd find that most all products made with steel have more recycled material than virgin, but I doubt aluminum. I bought mine with out any research as to the quality and I am very happy with it, for a $6 knife. Like I said earlier, I hate to lose anything, especially a knife, but if I did I would be out nothing. I carried a Case knife for a long time, in fact the RR replaced it, and I could bring the edge to razor sharp and it would go dull in my pocket before I had a chance to use it. So far, everything I've read says that they are great knives for the price. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showt ... id/813199/ There is also another link from this forum that I posted earlier.

Anyway, maybe they're not an expensive USA made knife, but they're certainly not as bad as you make them out to be. Just my 2-cents.

Hello tjmurphy, my reply to wildjim about the rough rider brand knives was done as he said, in a joking way to him. I didn't mean to offend or rub anyone wrong by doing it. If you, wildjim, or anyone else took offense to my words of opinion or way of joking please allow me to apologize to you because they were not meant that way towards anyone. What I wrote was my own personal opinion of them. I've never met or spoken with Darksev before (hello Darksev, nice to meet you by the way) but my opinion kinda parallels his about China made knives and stainless steel blades. I don't consider myself a knife collector I'm just an accumulator of knives & tools that I personally like. I have had rough rider knives before but if your definition of research means have I read everything I could find written about them then no, I have researched them very little in that way. I haven't tested them by the Rc hardness as someone said Huk has but I have researched them by my own definition of research which is carrying them in my pocket for cutting chores that I may do on a daily basis. Cutting chores for a knife to me maybe opening a 50 lb. paper bag of dog food to cutting 4 foot wide coalmining belt or cutting old car tires & making them into big flower pots for the yard & everything in between. No offense meant but the rough rider knives I had failed at those chores and failed badly. I've had them to break blades & bone handles while I was using them. The bone handles that broke had hollow parts on the unseen liner side that came from the factory like that with the best part of the bone handle being the outside part that can be easily seen. The blades broke in different places like at the tang or the middle of the blade. I'm not singling rough rider brand knives out because I've had other brands of knives & tools, even USA brands that didn't do what I expected & wanted them to do. The name of the knife or tool makes no difference because some of the knives I've tried were Marbles & Schrade China made knives among others made in different countries. To me the name doesn't do the job at hand the knife or tool does. Considering all the different knives & tools I've used, the majority of the ones that didn't meet my personal expectations of what I wanted or needed them to do were made in China, Pakistan. Taiwan, & the cheaper quality ones. There are good & bad in every brand of knife & tool. It's just that from my own personal experiences of using knives & tools I buy & keep the ones that will do what I want & need them to do and sale, give away, or throw away the ones that don't. I guess it all comes down to personal preference and what you want or expect the knife or tool to do. Again this is only my own personal experiences and opinions and I mean no disrespect or offense towards anyone in anyway that has different ones than mine.
Respectfully, Aimus Moses.

[tjmurphy]

Greetings Aimus

I guess that you really don't have anything to apologize for, but I do need to apologize for my rant. Sorry. Won't happen again. I guess if I worked a knife hard, I might come to the same conclusion as you.

[wildjim]

I ordered the AAPK Canal Street club knife maybe that'll be a good starting point and basis for comparison of future purchases. Unfortunately its a collectors item and I'll probably shy away from using it much : (

I also went to Wal-Mart this afternoon and examined a Buck #371 Stockman, its made in China and it looked pretty nice but I didn't buy it as it was $20 and I can buy the Buck USA model for $26 wholesale. Anyway I got a chance to examine the Buck slip joint and looked alright to me.

I need to find a knife shop around Baltimore that has some quality slip joint knives for comparison.

Aimus Moses: No need to explain yourself to me I understood your meaning; its all good. . .

[trail]

Another idea for how to get a quick education in knives. Browse the back pages on the AAPK boards, then go through all the knives for sale at the AAPK stores. You'll have a good idea of what some serious knife aficionados think of the various brands, what they look like, and fair prices. I did that, and while I don't claim to know much, I know infinitely more than I did before.

[testcase]

One thing I have to add, aside from the questionable quality of the Chinese made knives, well two really

1) Do you wish to purchase an item made with communist slave labor? Every dollar that goes to China helps expand their military while their people starve at government whim. While true with a lot of items we have no choice about buying Chinese, in knives we still do, at least for now, until the current US manufactors are run out of business by the flood of cheap knives.

2) Every dollar spent on a Chinese knife adds to the trade imbalance. True, a tiny, insignifigant purchase of a pocket knife means little, but they are importing MILLIONS of these cheap knives. DO the math

Afraid of losing an expensive knife? Look around, do a little shopping. I carry a Voss jack that I paid about 15.00 for. It isn't a pretty knife, but the carbon steel blades are about a hundred times better than the chinese junk. I WOULD be sad to lose it, but I would be even more sad to hand a chinese knife to a friend that asked to borrow a knife.There are Camillus, Schrade, and others floating around at prices similar prices to the communist made junk.

It is well worth it to me to skip a meal out to buy an American made knife, which is the difference in price between say some Case models, or as someone else mentioned Bear and Sons, and a Chinses knife. If it is a free country, at least the part not already owned by China, so spend yur money as you see fit. I see a US knife as a small piece of this country preserved.

[Jim Bush]

I'm joining this discussion pretty late, and may be showing my ignorance, but I am not sure of the definition of "slip joint" knife. I probably have a bunch of them, as I collect folders of all types, but I don't know what makes one a slip joint. I also carry a CKRD marked knife, but don't know what that stands for either. It is a little stainless steel Smith and Wesson that says "first production run", and has a clip and razor blade. Anyone care to smarten me up?

[wildjim]

I'm joining this discussion pretty late, and may be showing my ignorance, but I am not sure of the definition of "slip joint" knife. I probably have a bunch of them, as I collect folders of all types, but I don't know what makes one a slip joint. I also carry a CKRD marked knife, but don't know what that stands for either. It is a little stainless steel Smith and Wesson that says "first production run", and has a clip and razor blade. Anyone care to smarten me up?

Scroll down to about the middle of the page for knfe type descriptions or read the whole article, its fun ; )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife

More:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_knife

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/res ... itions.php

Animation!

http://foldingknives.designinquiry.wiki ... ing+knives

[Jim Bush]

So in other words, any folding knife that does not have a lock back feature, and depends on pressure to close the blade into the frame, could be called a slip joint. Now I know, and thanks for the help. I still don't know what CKRD or CKRT means concerning a knife.

[wildjim]

So in other words, any folding knife that does not have a lock back feature, and depends on pressure to close the blade into the frame, could be called a slip joint. Now I know, and thanks for the help. I still don't know what CKRD or CKRT means concerning a knife.

I cannot tolerate acronyms and abbreviations when unnecessary, its usually a sign of ignorance and laziness.

[Paladin]

CRKT is Columbia River Knife and Tool.

[wildjim]

What's the thought about Buck Creek, German Bull, German Eye and Puma German made knives?

[Darksev]

I know the older german eye and puma knives are very well built, and have some collectible value, but I'm not so knowledgeable about them