Some knives named Jack, but not English Show me yours.

[RobesonsRme.com]

All;
The only problem I have with inked numbers on knives is that of all the things one could do to falsely enhance the value of a knife, inking is the easiest, least labor and time intensive, and least expensive.

Do I own Robeson or Terrier knives that I fully believe to have been salesman's samples, and have inked code numbers on them? Yes, I do.

However, I try not to go nuts when I see such a knife on a sales table or on Ebay. I don't know enough about old sample knives to know how old the ink might be on any given knife.
I'll buy such a knife, but I won't pay a premium price based on ink alone. And, I would never remove any ink from a knife.

Now. My four blade scout utility might have been an old display board knife at one time. However, it wasn't on a board when I bought it. And, it was, frankly, ugly. I knew it had varnish on it, because I knew that Robeson used it. The seller did not. I thought there was a mint 1930's knife hiding beneath that varnish. There was.

Removing the varnish did not remove any metal, nor the original polish hidden by the varnish.

I understand Dimitri's desire for preserving the history of our knives. Maybe I screwed up on this one, and on the mint strawberry bone handled three blade stockman from which I also removed the varnish.

Charlie Noyes

[Sauconian]

I have to respect your logic about ink regarding pricing/faking Charlie. I have a knife or two with ink also, but even routine care of one demands extra attention in my opinion. I had no qualms about disposing of a KABAR fixed blade that was inked, but fading.

(Lets see how long it takes for salesman samples to start showing up in the auctions of some of our infamous eplayers after this discussion. There's already one seller who calls any shiny knife a sample, even without ink.)

I think I'm basically a preservationist, but varnish would be a situation I'd have to think long and hard about. Sure, it's factory applied, and therefore historic, but it was applied to preserve the appearance of the knife as the factory intended it to be, not to be part of that original factory appearance. I won't pay a premium for knives with mounting holes in the handles either. Taking history to a ridiculous extreme, how about deer hair inside an old Rem. bullet, or dried fish scales on a toothpick ? It's all history !

Oily hand dirt and grime in the jigging of a used knife is part of it's history also, but if it's my knife, it's outta' there. So's rust on a blade if you think about it.

It the end, it's all about personal opinion and comfort zone. Rust, dirt, varnish removed,...lightly cleaned, buffed, restored,...that's why there are fewer collectible knives each year, and why they hopefully increase in value. Attrition and trickle down condition are all part of the equation of collecting.

I face decisions about historic preservation vs. improvement all the time at the old schoolhouse. Sometimes making a choice is agonizing. The fighter aircraft, and the xx loves yy carved in the desktops stay (not you Ulf.) but the gum under the seats is gone !

My 2p.
Fran

[Miller Bro's]

Charlie,

Here is that Robeson 622119 that also has the factory blade coating.

I won`t call it varnish, because I really don`t know what it is made of.

Whatever it is it did not turn yellow on the blades of this one, also it is almost completely intact.

Another thing about this knife the bolsters and backsprings are also coated, the coating on the bolsters has turned yellow. Some of it has come off, see the pictures.


M.B.

[orvet]

This is an interesting & good discussion about preserving the history on the knife.
I suppose there as many different opinions on this matter as there are collectors.
When a knife is used badly and in a state of disrepair, I personally, have no problem fixing the knife to be a good user, however I do sign my work inside the mark side liner to let others know that it is not original.

A good example is an old Schrade Cut Co Barlow. The bone on one side was getting punky and the other side was missing about 1/3 of the bone. The master blade had been poorly sharpened and also put on a grinder. There was little historical value left in the knife and not much value as a user. So I have no problem replacing the handles, the secondary blade and reshaping the master blade to make a good EDC for me. I began the process this evening.

I am curious to get your feelings on this.

Thank you,
Dale

[RobesonsRme.com]

Interesting discussion. Maybe I'll be vindicated by consensus.

Dimitri, that's a nice late Robeson jack, probably from the 1960's, based on the shield. I do not truly know when they started using it, that's just been my opinion. Could have been in the 50's, and the black handles with a bone designator, "6" in the pattern number suggests that.

If you do a Google image search using the keyword, "ShurEdge", and follow the results down close to the last pages, you'll find a website that discusses modern design elements and Art Deco advertising. They include this image in that discussion.

I do not know what the substance on the Robeson board knives is, either. I called it "varnish" because you called it that in your original post. It almost has an acrylic quality to it.

It gets old, discolors, and flakes off in places. However, I know one thing, it apparently worked, as all the knives I've seen with it were remarkably well preserved.

Charlie Noyes

[Miller Bro's]

I was a coin collector at age 10. I quickly learned about Patina and leaving things as you found them when I was given some old coins and I quickly got out the can of chrome cleaner and made them all nice and shiney! Well my older brother, who collected coins too, had a good laugh and said they are now worth their face value only, you ruined them.


What I was trying to get across is, some things are best left alone, you should not remove anything. But as Fran said if it is your knife you can do what you want to it. It is a personal choice.

Dale, considering the condition of your knife from the start, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing to it. However, if it were a one of a kind knife and there were no other known examples then that would be a different story.

The coating on the Robeson knife has yellowed with age, that is called Patina, that is why I chose to leave it alone. It is what it is. It does not make this knife any more valuable, just historically important. In fact from the prices I see on the internet, the buyers like them all polished up. This knife would bring LESS money because of the coating on the surfaces. That`s what happens when collectors forget about the history of knives and just go for finding Rare or "Mint" examples.

Here is an internet definition of Patina, and it`s value.


"Patina is a film on the surface of bronze or similar metals ; a sheen on wooden furniture produced by age, wear, and polishing; or any such acquired change of a surface through age and exposure. On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxides or carbonates formed on the surface during exposure to the elements. Patina also refers to accumulated changes in surface texture and colour that result from normal use of an object such as a coin or a piece of furniture over time. Patinas are restricted to exposed surfaces and are fragile. One reason bronze is so highly valued in statuary is that its patina protects or passivates it."

Value
"Apart from the aesthetic appearance and practical protection of patination, antique experts confirm that an object's value increases when its patination is intact because it is an important effect of the ageing process and this evidential history is reflected in the value of the piece.

In terms of antiques then,

Patina is everything that happens to an object over the course of time. The nick in the leg of a table, a scratch on a table top, the loss of moisture in the paint, the crackling of a finish or a glaze in ceramics, the gentle wear patterns on the edge of a plate. All these things add up to create a softer look, subtle color changes, a character. Patina is built from all the effects, natural and man-made, that create a true antique."

M.B.

[Aimus Moses]

Good morning everyone. First, let me say that this is a very interesting subject and I'm enjoying reading everyone's view of it. Second, let me say I'm a snot nosed green horn at something like this. My question is would a person that has some unused Case or Schrade knives with carbon steel blades cause any value damage, short or long term, to the knives by taking some polish & an old t-shirt and rubbing the blades to get the darker tint off the blades that are common to carbon steel blades from the effects of time, & knocking the dull look off the bolsters? Are the blades and bolsters better left alone with the dark tinted blades and dull looking bolsters to keep more of the value of the knives? I guess what I'm asking is should a knife be left in the exact condition you received it in for it to retain it's true value? It's odd that I found this conversation because I just recently purchased a 70's era Case jumbo jack knife that has what I'm thinking a couple of you guys are calling preserving varnish (?) or cosmoline (?) on both blades. I don't know the knifes history besides what Case normally tells about it's pattern and tang stamp and what the seller told me about buying it new in this condition. Did Case use the preserving varnish on any of their display knives? T.I.A.
Aimus Moses

[orvet]

Dale, considering the condition of your knife from the start, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing to it. However, if it were a one of a kind knife and there were no other known examples then that would be a different story.

I totally agree if the examples are rare or one-of-a-kind………..DON’T TOUCH THEM!

In fact from the prices I see on the internet, the buyers like them all polished up. This knife would bring LESS money because of the coating on the surfaces. That’s what happens when collectors forget about the history of knives and just go for finding Rare or "Mint" examples.

I totally agree. I am posting a pic of a nice old Ulster Jack.
From the pitting on the blade, it had been in the presence of a knife with off-gassing celluloid. Notice the lines of pitting on the blades where they sit inside the liners.
Someone buffed the snot out of this knife to sell it on ebay and did not post pics that really showed the damage to the blades. The handles have been buffed so much that you can barely make out the advertising on them. Front handle says O. S. JOYCE. The back handle says; TRI-POINT OIL CO. / CHAMPION OILS.

I really would rather have gotten it in the original condition. This is an excellent example of the seller thinking he would get a lot more money if it were polished. If he paid someone to do the polishing for him, he probably lost money as the knife only sold for $27.00. I would have paid more if it had the patina.

My question is would a person that has some unused Case or Schrade knives with carbon steel blades cause any value damage, short or long term, to the knives by taking some polish & an old t-shirt and rubbing the blades to get the darker tint off the blades that are common to carbon steel blades from the effects of time, & knocking the dull look off the bolsters? Are the blades and bolsters better left alone with the dark tinted blades and dull looking bolsters to keep more of the value of the knives? I guess what I'm asking is should a knife be left in the exact condition you received it in for it to retain it's true value?

IMHO, and it is just MY opinion, I think active rust MUST be stopped, otherwise it is a cancer that will eat through the knife.

If nickel silver bolsters have the red haze on them that is indicative of having been too close to off-gassing celluloid, I will clean it off to stop that damage. I think what you are seeing is copper sulfide caused by the gaseous nitric acid released from the decomposing celluloid, leaching the copper out of the nickel silver. I think my chemistry is correct, but perhaps someone with a better chemistry background can correct me.
However, I will clean that reddish deposit off the nickel silver. I do not think it is necessary to polish the bolsters just for the sake of making them shiny.

As for the blades, if there is no active rust, I will wipe them down with a light oil and leave them alone otherwise.
The patina that develops on carbon steel knives actually protects them from rust. If you remove it, you make the blades more vulnerable to moisture.

When a knife has celluloid handles that have begun to off-gas I don’t think a collector has any choice but to remove the celluloid to stop the damage. Otherwise the knife will probably be totally destroyed eventually.
I would love to hear what the rest of you think about this.



This is an excellent discussion. I would like to hear more opinions.

Dale

[Owd Wullie]

Personally, I think it sacrilegious to take an old knife and grind/polish the patina off it. ESPECIALLY, if some one is trying to make it look better than it is inorder to sell it. Somebody used the expression, "granny in a mini-skirt" a while back and I think that is truly appropriate. I've got several that have been "cleaned" ( piss poor term in my opinion) to a point of probably being more highly polished than they were when they were made. Buffing over the pits and sharpening scratches is just silly in my opinion and does NOTHING to enhance the value of the knife. Furthermore, I can' t help but wonder how many of the so called knife cleaners out there understand how hot a blade on a buffing wheel can get and how easy it is to mess up a good temper on a blade by improper sanding and buffing. I guess if a knife is relegated to sitting on a shelf the for eternity it doesn't matter. I happen to think a knife might accidentally be destined to be used at some point in time though.

The knives I buy for the most part are knives that I'm not ashamed or scared to carry. They have honest use and wear and I like that. I've ended up with several here lately that ended being far nicer than they were represented to be. I won't carry them but I sure will not buff off the occasional pepper spot or stained areas where the blades were above the liners and a bit different color than the rest of the blade.

It would be pretty easy to make this old Crucible look new, except for the slightly shrunken and cracked scales.


However, it will stay as it was found.

The old Robeson that I "cleaned" had been raped. Any collector value was nil. I made it a good using knife as did Dale with his knife. Mine isn't scarce or particularly rare, so it can now soldier on as it was designed. If I ever decide to get rid of it, I will tell whoever what I did to it and let them decide if they want it or not.

W

[orvet]

The old Robeson that I "cleaned" had been raped. Any collector value was nil. I made it a good using knife as did Dale with his knife. Mine isn't scarce or particularly rare, so it can now soldier on as it was designed. If I ever decide to get rid of it, I will tell whoever what I did to it and let them decide if they want it or not.

W

IMHO it is the highest complement to an old knife (especially one that has been used), is to restore it to usable condition so that it can “soldier on.”

Dale

[orvet]

Here is the Schrade Cut Co I posted on earlier in the thread.

Some before and after pics.
This was a fun little project and now I have a Cut Co EDC.

Dale

[Owd Wullie]

Looks great Dale,

Put new life into an old knife. I see nothing wrong with doing that.

What you did is a far cry from trying to make an old knife into something it once was, yet never can be again. New, that is.

[woseyjales]

It's probably just my car enthusiast showing thru, but to me the knives and their various forms of condition ar similar to the cars.
I wouldn't expect a daily driver to be in same condition as the weekend auto show trailered in model any more than in the condition of the road racer. Each has their different use & assignment and can't be fairly held to the same standards.
Of course that's just my opinion and like a tailpipe, every car has one.
Therefore, here are two of my favorite Jacks.
Marbles USA EZO for show
1978 22087 EDC for Go.

[Ramrod]

Here are a couple more.
Schrade cut co.
and Dasco 940
Mark

GEDC0564resized.JPG (148.23 KiB) Viewed 4577 times

Dasco 2.jpg (43.5 KiB) Viewed 4577 times

[Beechtree]

Here is a GRIFFON XX B'PORT Jack with the faint/heavily buffed etch of "SALESMANSHIP". Perhaps it was an award?

[Bret888]

I have no idea about "salesmanship", but that is a beautiful knife, with a great shield!

[Vanguard41xx]

Voos


H&B


Boker


Remington


WR Case


Fairmount


Marbles


And a few more in here

[Beechtree]

Thanks Vanguard. Nice collection you have posted there. That Marbles is swell, and I have always liked those Voos simple jacks.

[cato]

got this BOKER in today ; its a swell center

[313 Mike]

HOLY CATS Cato! That is one of the most beautiful knives I've seen in a while!
Long pull, fat spear with a swedge, beautiful bone with deep gnarly jigging, swell center, fine piece of cutlery you have there indeed! Gorgeous knife...

Mike

[RobesonsRme.com]

THAT is a NICE knife!

Is it marked, BOKER / U.S.A., or is there a "GERMANY" stamp on it?

Charlie Noyes

[cato]

Thanks genlemen,

Charlie,

it has BOKER on tang stamp, the blade etch has TREE BOKER IN CURVE AT TOP W/USA UNDER IT, BRAND

But the way the handlles are fitted to the knife, has the look of German, the way it meets the bolster has

that style were it has a swedge looking grind from bone to metal .

I posted in the Boker forum, maybe the greedy or blue will shed some light on it..

is a very nice knife, glad to have it in my collection

Greg Cates aka cato

[FRJ]

I found this early thread that is interesting and has lots of pictures of great Jack Knives and a lot of friendly back and forth
from some of the older guys who were enjoying the thread and each others knives. Good stuff.
This will give me a chance to get some more pictures on my new computer and show off some of my jacks.
Thanks for looking.

First three: American Knife - Thomaston, Ct.
Next three: Thomaston knife Co. Conn.
Last three: Holley knife Co. Lakeville Ct.

[danno50]

Three beautiful jacks, Joe!

[cudgee]

Nice bunch you have there mate, you must have been doing some digging to have found this thread, has not been active for a while. I'm going to put it down to someone who has too much time on there hands due to Corona virus restrictions, " only jokin ".