Pocket knife jargon questions?

[TrickyRick]

By reading posts on this site, I think I am getting a basic understanding of some of the common jargon such as "walk and talk", "half stop", scales vs covers and basic knife parts nomenclature. One of the things that I am not understanding is the "pull" rating scale of 1 through 10. For me if a blade opens on it's own I call it "broken", if I don't break my thumbnail opening it then I figure it gets an OK for me. If I have to use pliers to open a blade I am suspecting something is wrong that might or might not be able to be remedied. Anyway, curious as to how one assigns a value between "1 and 10" rating.

[C-WADE7]

I think it’s a subjective thing to the person. I have several I would say are a 7-8 because they are hard to open but don’t break a nail, I have a stockman the may be a 2.5-3 it is almost too soft opening. But if you open 10-15 different knives back to back it gets blurry how easy or hard it really is. Hope that helps somewhat.

[TrickyRick]

Thanks C-Wade, not being a collector myself, only as a custodian of my dad's knives, I had noticed some are quite difficult to open. Cleaning and oiling has improved most of them so far. Is it perhaps how well the original design is/was and how well manufactured they were, not only if the knife is old, rusty, damaged?

[dsutton24]

A few years ago I rigged up a trigger pull scale thing and tested a lot of knives. The short version of the story is that I attached the scale at the nail nick of the blade, and worked out a method where I could get repeatable results. An old, well used Buck 110 measured 24 ounces of opening force. I figure that's about the lightest pull I'd want to stick in a pocket. The caplifter blade of an old Camillus Scout knife measured an impressive 91 ounces, that one really did bust thumbnails.

So, if you call a blade that flops open a 1, and a nail buster a 10, everything else is in between.

The problem is that the 1 - 10 scale probably isn't linear. The average of most knives was about 35 ounces. But, to arrive at that number I had to back out the GECs as they averaged significantly higher pull numbers, it wasn't even close and skewed the numbers upward a lot. So then, is 35 ounces a 5, or is 54 ounces? How about 45 ounces, half of the thumbnail buster number?

A knife that I bought that was described as a 7 by the seller weighed in at 71 ounces. That's about the stiffest spring I'd even consider using on a daily basis. Actually, given a choice I'd move on to another knife.

Argh!

I don't like the 1 - 10 thing as it's entirely subjective. The fashion these days is to favor backsprings that are just shy of rat-trap stout. You don't need truck springs on a knife to keep it closed or to produce a satisfying walk-and-talk. It's easier to make a snappy knife by using a stupid spring. I think that's why manufacturers who really ought to know better over spring their knives.

[1967redrider]

to AAPK!

Pull strength, sometimes called snap, is good up to a point. If you can't get the blade open using your nail, then there are issues because how will you be able to use a knife like that? Modern tacticals have a "flipper tab" for moving the blade past the detent that holds the blade closed. Also, some nail nicks are better than others. Pull strength also holds the blade open and keeps it from closing while you're using it.

Hope this helps.

[herbva]

to AAPK!

Pull strength, sometimes called snap, is good up to a point. If you can't get the blade open using your nail, then there are issues because how will you be able to use a knife like that? Modern tacticals have a "flipper tab" for moving the blade past the detent that holds the blade closed. Also, some nail nicks are better than others. Pull strength also holds the blade open and keeps it from closing while you're using it.

Hope this helps.

Excellent explanation John!

[OLDE CUTLER]

Another thing to consider is leverage, that is how far from the pivot point is your thumb nail when opening the blade. Some knives have small nail nicks and some use the longer full length pull. That will at least partially explain why some can and bottle opener blades are nail busters.

[rea1eye]

I have a few knives that are really great looking but the pull is near a 10.
If my nails are long and I have not done any hard physical labor I might
be able to open it if lucky. Those times I bring a little index card to
slip into the knife well. I tend to carry those when I think it is very
unlikely I would need to use a EDC.

Bob

[jerryd6818]

I've used the folded strip of index card. Works fine. I've also used a strip cut from a milk gallon jug.

[Knifeslut2]

I also believe that older knives tend to be harder to open. Especially noticeable when you see mint older knives that have not been carried or opened much. I think it is mostly due to the fact that people used to be a lot more physically active, and most jobs as well as just day to day living required a LOT more physical strength than most folks have today.

It is real noticeable when you open older Case knives as well as most other quality brands that have been around for decades.

Also, as already mentioned a good strong spring helps to hold the blade open and way more people carried and depended on their knives years back on a daily basis and having one start to close due to a weak spring could get you cut. Still can! That is how all the different style blade locks were developed. I like liner, frame, and lock backs but do still REALLY like high quality hard to open slip joints!

[eveled]

When I see an older knife that looks like it was not used much and it has a hard pull. I tend to believe that is the reason it wasn’t used much.

0 flops open, 9 breaks nails 10needs tools to open

Every thing else falls in between.

It is interesting that you don’t want either end of the scale.

You don’t want a 0 but you also don’t want a 10. I can’t think of anything else you would grade like that.

I’m not asking her out, she’s a 10! I’m looking for a perfect 6!

A better system would be to compare the way it opens to a SAK. They seem to always open about the same, and just about perfectly.

[Wudidiz]

I always carry a stiff guitar pick. Works well on knives and guitars.

[QTCut5]

I use a folded business card to open the knives I keep in the safe (non-users) so as to avoid touching the blades and minimize fingerprints that transfer skin acids and oils that can etch/corrode steel. Sometimes I have to use a knife pick when there's not enough space to get a card between the tip of a blade and the end of the frame.

But, for my EDC knives I carry flippers and lock backs that are easy to open. IMHO, it seems absurd to carry a tool in order to open another tool.

[Ridgegrass]

Made this knife pick about forty years ago from stuff lying on the work bench. 3" long. A piece of copper brake line, copper washer, a 2" eye bolt, an antler tip, and a short piece of flat stock stock held in with a tiny set screw. Use to keep it on a lanyard. Sure has saved my thumb nail. J.O'.

[QTCut5]

slip joints are folding knives such as Opinels which pivot open without a backspring .

I thought those were called friction folders.
The word "slipjoint" is commonly used to refer to folders that have a back spring but is non-locking, i.e., the tang "slips" on the end of the spring when the blade is both opened and closed.

[Mumbleypeg]

slip joints are folding knives such as Opinels which pivot open without a backspring .

I thought those were called friction folders.
The word "slipjoint" is commonly used to refer to folders that have a back spring but is non-locking, i.e., the tang "slips" on the end of the spring when the blade is both opened and closed.

I agree. While we’re on the topic of pocket knife jargon, while it is possible that “Both folders and fixed blades can have scales”, probably not in the way many people think.

The correct definition of “scale” is that part of a knife next to the blade. Most fixed blades have “integral” blades, where the blade extends into and becomes part of the handle. In that case the scale is also the handle, because it is affixed to that portion of the blade. (There is no liner.)

However on most folders there is a liner, aka the “scale” - the part that is next to the blade. Bolsters are typically welded to the “scales”. Materials including “wood, bone, antler, stone, horn and others” that are affixed to the scales (liners) are correctly called “covers”, or “handle covers”. Not scales. Only on folders having no liners would the handle covers also be scales. I’ve seen handle covers erroneously referred to as “scales” by folks who should know better.

Here’s an article from the Case Collector newsletter, wherein the author correctly makes frequent reference to “covers”.

Ken

[joeradza]

Welcome to AAPK Rick. This place is a fountain of knowledge. As to the number system of opening a folder, the simplest explanation I've heard is that a Swiss Army Knife (which is very consistent) is a "5" and everything else works off of that, either < easier or > harder.

[QTCut5]

A problem I've always had with the design of a traditional knife pick (of which I own several in various sizes with differently shaped ends designed to fit different types of nail nicks) is the way pressure must be simultaneously applied both perpendicularly to the blade as well as upwards in order to lift the blade out of the blade well. The lateral pressure against the side of the blade forces it off center, torquing the pivot pin, and the vertical pressure often causes the pick to slip out of the nail nick which is generally quite shallow.

Here's an innovative and unique knife pick that was designed and made for me by Ivoryman from a moose tine. The cutout fits over the spine of the blade and the notch fits into the nail nick. When the handle is lifted, equal pressure is applied to either side of the blade much like pinching between two fingers. Unlike traditional knife picks, it doesn't have the tendency to slip out when the blade is half opened regardless of the "pull rating". It even has finger grooves for better grip. I'll admit that it is designed mainly for single-blade knives and doesn't work as well on multi-blade knives.

It works, it's brilliant and I defy anyone to design a better knife pick.

[Jeepergeo]

I use a folded business card to open the knives I keep in the safe (non-users) so as to avoid touching the blades and minimize fingerprints that transfer skin acids and oils that can etch/corrode steel. Sometimes I have to use a knife pick when there's not enough space to get a card between the tip of a blade and the end of the frame.

But, for my EDC knives I carry flippers and lock backs that are easy to open. IMHO, it seems absurd to carry a tool in order to open another tool.

+1 on flippers for EDC. My favorite, functional EDCs feature a finger flipper and a blade lock, with the blade rotating on a bearing. I like spine locks for strength and two-handed closure, and now frame locks or liner locks for one-handed closure. My favorite EDCs are a Buck Marksman with a unique spine lock and a Demko with a liner lock. Both are great designs, ooen incredibly fast, and have a greatly satisifying fiddle factor to them.

Sometimes my EDC is for more nostalgia or maybe style. Those EDCs are carried more for their looks than function, though all have some level of function. Examples there would be a Camillus Boy Scout Knife (Eagle Scout 1973, so nostalgia and function) and a Case Copperlock with Abalone scales (beautiful and goes well with a suit and tie).

[FRJ]

I thought those were called friction folders.
The word "slipjoint" is commonly used to refer to folders that have a back spring but is non-locking, i.e., the tang "slips" on the end of the spring when the blade is both opened and closed.

I agree. While we’re on the topic of pocket knife jargon, while it is possible that “Both folders and fixed blades can have scales”, probably not in the way many people think.

The correct definition of “scale” is that part of a knife next to the blade. Most fixed blades have “integral” blades, where the blade extends into and becomes part of the handle. In that case the scale is also the handle, because it is affixed to that portion of the blade. (There is no liner.)

However on most folders there is a liner, aka the “scale” - the part that is next to the blade. Bolsters are typically welded to the “scales”. Materials including “wood, bone, antler, stone, horn and others” that are affixed to the scales (liners) are correctly called “covers”, or “handle covers”. Not scales. Only on folders having no liners would the handle covers also be scales. I’ve seen handle covers erroneously referred to as “scales” by folks who should know better.
Ken
[/quote]

^^^THIS^^^

[OLDE CUTLER]

As part of the discussion of hard to open knives that was being carried on here last spring, I have always thought that whittlers have the potential to be hard to open because of the way that the master blade is closed by the pressure of 2 springs unlike what many other patterns of knife use. What I consider to be my 2 worst knives to open, that is thumb busters, are both whittlers. At top is a Paxton & Gallagher whittler, which I cannot open with a thumb nail or a knife pick. The safest way is with an end cutting plier which can grip the nail nick without slipping and get the blade to the half stop. The Henckels whittler shown below is not quite as bad, I can usually get it open with a knife pick.

[Mumbleypeg]

I can’t disagree. I have a couple of whittlers having master blades that are near impossible to open. They don’t need pliers to open the blade but a knife pick is sure handy (I keep one on my keychain). They are beautiful knives, else I probably would have passed on buying them. I’ve oiled them and worked the blades but they’re still so hard to open I wouldn’t consider carrying them. I’ve always thought because the master blade rides on two springs, whittlers seem more prone to the problem.

Ken