Ethics question

[edge213]

If someone is selling a knife with celluloid handles that show signs of outgassing, should they state in the description that the knife is outgassing? Or, is simply showing pictures okay? Leaving it up to the buyer to be knowledgeable enough to know the knife is outgassing?

I'm asking this because I've seen listing of obvious outgassing handles with no mention of it by the seller.
Seems wrong to me. So, I wanted others opinions.

[dlr110]

I would say that it should be disclosed but what if the person selling has no idea what outgassing is? I didn't until I joined AAPK and learned from all you folks.

[cudgee]

I would say that it should be disclosed but what if the person selling has no idea what outgassing is? I didn't until I joined AAPK and learned from all you folks.

[Steve Warden]

I would say that it should be disclosed but what if the person selling has no idea what outgassing is? I didn't until I joined AAPK and learned from all you folks.

Same here

[eveled]

Its only unethical if they know what is going on.

Some people choose to remain ignorant. If you could prove they knew, it would be a black mark on their reputation otherwise you are left to believe they are just blissfully unaware.

You could tell them and decide if you trust them as a seller based on their response.

If they don’t know about out gassing then they wouldn’t know how to accurately describe the other knife details. I would take everything they say on anything they are selling with a grain of salt

[jerryd6818]

What David said. I know I had no clue about out-gassing before joining AAPK. Actually I had no clue about a lot of things before joining AAPK.

[Sharpnshinyknives]

David, you should contact the seller about it and let them know. When I first joined AAPK and opened a store I listed a knife that someone pointed out to me that it was outgassing and I didn’t realize it when I listed it. I looked the knife over closely and saw what he was talking about and changed my listing to include that in the description. It only had one sign of outgassing, a little etching on the top of the blade. There was no shrinkage and no damage to the bolsters so it wasn’t real obvious. Since then I point out any sign of outgassing that I see. My problem lately is that I have cataracts in both eyes and my AS effects my eyes so I have to rely on pictures to see the details on knives. Even with big images of a knife on my IPad, I might still miss something. I am always grateful for someone pointing out something I missed. Honest sellers here on AAPK are usually grateful for the help.

[herbva]

I am frequently amazed at how many sellers have no clue about outgassing or how unstable celluloid really is. I've even had one or two argue with me that the brownish haze forming on the bolsters and other obvious signs are nothing to worry about.

[1967redrider]

Caveat emptor applies for many sellers, unfortunately. Especially those who don't really know what they're selling. And sometimes the seller is a terrible photographer to boot!

[tvic]

To me, good pics (and several of them) are equally as important as the description. Signs of outgassing would be evident in a photo, right? I’m not sure if that’s something most people on EBay would know about. I just feel more comfortable buying from a seller who has lots of photos and at least attempts to give a fair description. The sellers who simply say, “see photos for condition” - well, I just don’t buy from them. Many times I’ll email with, “Ant flaws/issues that are not evident in the photos?” Anyway, bottom line - yes it would be nice for the seller to admit outgassing is going on, but I’m not gonna strike a seller off my list because he didn’t mention it. My guess is if a seller has attempted to give a good description (I.e., good snap, no cracks or chips, etc.) then I don’t think they were trying to be dishonest if outgassing wasn’t mentioned.

[btrwtr]

The short answer is that yes, any defect should be stated to include outgassing.

I think that AAPK stores are a far sight better than eBay as applied to selling knives. I would also hope that AAPK sellers are better educated as a whole in comparison. Still, given this, I have seen AAPK sales posting of counterfeit or adulterated knives and have worked with AAPK board members to minimize and negate such sales. Honest sellers can only describe a knife to the best of their knowledge and are limited to that. I often first see defects in used knives I sell when posting the pictures I have taken. Enlarged, high resolution pictures see much better than my eyes do. I also have had potential buyers point out flaws I have missed. And of course everyone makes unintentional mistakes.

Some sellers do work to hide flaws or show flaws without including them in their descriptions. Poor and lacking descriptions and pictures are plentiful on eBay. Caveat Emptor indeed.

[wlf]

What Wayne said.

[Bamarick]

I have quite a few older Bulldog and Fight'n Rooster knives with celluloid scales that I bought over the years. In time a good many of them have begun to show signs of outgassing, some are a lot worse than others, but once they start they will eventually worsen. I wasn't very well educated on the downfalls of celluloid in my early knife buying years. I don't hold any of my purchases against the sellers, I should have known more about what I was buying. But, rather than try to pass them on to other collectors, I've just thrown them into a pile away from my other knives. I guess it's an expensive education but it's one that remains with you. Rick.

[Reverand]

First off, a great question!
I agree with all that has been said. Some sellers do not know, and others do not care. Sometimes it is hard for buyers to know the difference, so we have to learn to judge both the knife and the seller.
An honest seller will appreciate the information if you courteously inform him/her. A dishonest seller will become defensive, no matter how nice you are.

[Rookie]

A trustworthy seller who honors their reputation would point out every defect that they know about, so there are no mysteries for the buyer.

However, you can't fault an ignorant person for their lack of knowledge. And the same goes for the buyer. They should know what they are buying, or they are paying for a lesson in learning about celluloid, so they don't make the same mistake again.

[Gone2Three]

Ethics question #2

Sorry, nothing to do with the outgassing but....
Ebay seller, this is the second time it's happened to me personally, but with different sellers
A knife comes up with an opening bid option and the buy it now option.
After looking closely at the listing, I choose the buy it now price and complete checkout. Anywhere from 30 minutes to about an hour later the seller contacts me saying a mistake is made and that my purchase will be refunded...
After going back and forth between email the refund is processed and it is relisted this time with no buy it now

Has this happened to anyone else here? Or am I just that unlucky

Randy

[ken98k]

Do the right thing, even when no one is looking.

[Mumbleypeg]

It’s never happened to me, but I seldom buy on eBay.

Seems a lot of folks have forgotten (or never learned) what my mother told me long ago. “The right thing to do is always the right thing to do”.

Ken

[Gone2Three]

I hear y'a Ken

Honestly, I've never sold anything on Ebay so I can't say either way if a mistake like that could even be possible... figured that if your building a listing you would catch any "mistakes " before it posted

For the sake of prosperity I will include a few screen shots of how it played out...
Its relisted on the sellers page if anyone here wants it... I'm not going to "try and win" it again seeing that it was already a done deal beforehand

Randy

[C-WADE7]

I have sold some stuff on eBay and will say it can be very confusing trying to list items for sale. I could see an honest mistake happening, but it could also be a way to cop out of selling it. When you cancel a sale it gives you a list of reasons to choose from and as far as damaged/broke, they may have just picked one to make it cancel.

[1967redrider]

I had this happen recently with an Anheuser Busch Bartender knife, the seller claimed his business partner sold the knife and didn't tell him. I still left an unfavorable review of the sale, which eBay tried to get me to drop since my money was refunded. But for me it was more about the general principle of the sale.

[MadeinUSA]

I don't even know if I have a celluloid scale knife in my collection

Guess I have some learning to do

[Madmarco]

Ethics question #2

Sorry, nothing to do with the outgassing but....
Ebay seller, this is the second time it's happened to me personally, but with different sellers
A knife comes up with an opening bid option and the buy it now option.
After looking closely at the listing, I choose the buy it now price and complete checkout. Anywhere from 30 minutes to about an hour later the seller contacts me saying a mistake is made and that my purchase will be refunded...
After going back and forth between email the refund is processed and it is relisted this time with no buy it now

Has this happened to anyone else here? Or am I just that unlucky

Randy

I haven't had your exact experience Randy, but have had something similar. I bought 2 beautiful and rather expensive folding daggers from a seller under "Make an offer/B.I.N." terms which had already been agreed upon between us, and perhaps 2 hours passed when they messaged me that their country, Morocco, doesn't have a shipping carrier who will ship to Canada so my order is cancelled and refunded. I was VERY disappointed and became suspicious, so I went back to his listings to see if the knives were back in his stock, and of course they weren't. I checked his stock everyday for about a week just in case he was just slow about re-listing the 2 knives, but still they never showed. It became obvious someone had made a higher offer, likely via message since the sale had been completed to me and was no longer available, at which point I suppose I could have complained to Ebay, but I was so frustrated I simply decided to "unsave" the seller from my list and be sure to not do business with them again. Caveat Emptor to the highest degree!

[Madmarco]

I had this happen recently with an Anheuser Busch Bartender knife, the seller claimed his business partner sold the knife and didn't tell him. I still left an unfavorable review of the sale, which eBay tried to get me to drop since my money was refunded. But for me it was more about the general principle of the sale.

I'd have done the exact same thing John. Sometimes in your gut you just know when you're being bs'ed!

[Gone2Three]

Ethics question #2

Sorry, nothing to do with the outgassing but....
Ebay seller, this is the second time it's happened to me personally, but with different sellers
A knife comes up with an opening bid option and the buy it now option.
After looking closely at the listing, I choose the buy it now price and complete checkout. Anywhere from 30 minutes to about an hour later the seller contacts me saying a mistake is made and that my purchase will be refunded...
After going back and forth between email the refund is processed and it is relisted this time with no buy it now

Has this happened to anyone else here? Or am I just that unlucky

Randy

I haven't had your exact experience Randy, but have had something similar. I bought 2 beautiful and rather expensive folding daggers from a seller under "Make an offer/B.I.N." terms which had already been agreed upon between us, and perhaps 2 hours passed when they messaged me that their country, Morocco, doesn't have a shipping carrier who will ship to Canada so my order is cancelled and refunded. I was VERY disappointed and became suspicious, so I went back to his listings to see if the knives were back in his stock, and of course they weren't. I checked his stock everyday for about a week just in case he was just slow about re-listing the 2 knives, but still they never showed. It became obvious someone had made a higher offer, likely via message since the sale had been completed to me and was no longer available, at which point I suppose I could have complained to Ebay, but I was so frustrated I simply decided to "unsave" the seller from my list and be sure to not do business with them again. Caveat Emptor to the highest degree!

Yep, you win Marco...
Sorry that happened to y'a, I think your right about a side deal.
I've often wondered on the bidding as well... say you bid on a knife and the price just keeps topping what you bid, it closes for $$$ and then its relisted not long afterwards. Like they're driving up the bidding
This was not an expensive knife by any means, but it just chaps my hide when someone doesn't stand by their deal...

Randy